Thank you so much for helping me with my mysterious great great grandfather.
I think it would have helped if I had given you all the information to start with.
Part A – What I know
My direct line that I know is:
My father: Robert John Crotty (1930-2016) - born and died at Katoomba, NSW
My grandmother: Ellen Louisa Curnow (4 Jan 1897- 7 Jul 1960) - born Dapto - died Katoomba
My great grandfather: William Curnow (11 Dec 1872- 13 Jun 1947) - born Hill End - died Katoomba
My great great grandfather: William Curnow - no birth or death details - date or location
For the mystery William, I have:
Publican licence – place, hotel names and dates at Tamaboora and Hill End, no other details, some dates as listed below. I have a marriage certificate (30 Jan 1972) and a birth certificate of William (born December 1872). There are no useful details about the father, William except the birth certificate says he is 29 years old and was born in Cornwall. Therefore year of birth most likely is 1843. The details on the certificate are a bit dodgy as we know Ann was 42 years old but she lists her age as 39 years old and there is also something funny about a declaration made after the birth.... Also the 1 in 1871 looks like it has been changed to a 2, I think. Maybe the young William was born in 1871 and they changed it to 1872 so he would be born in wedlock. They also travelled all the way to Sydney to get married and then put no details on the certificate at all other county of birth, ie Cornwall and that he was a Soap Manufacturer (that sounds unlikely...) Trove also has details of the bankruptcy of William and Ann in 1873.
William was apparently “kicked out” in about 1873, but he seems to be around a bit after that. Maybe clearing up the bankruptcy and property in Hill End.
The Hill End Family History website has William and Ann having pubs in 1872-73, with William being the publican and licensee. From 1875, Ann is listed as the publican and William as the spouse. I believe he wasn’t with her then from family oral and written notes history. Ann also had a hotel in Araleun, NSW prior to moving to Hill End, NSW.
Ann then moved to Hartley Vale alone and had a pub there in 1879. William is not in the picture then. She also has the Katoomba Hotel, Katoomba in 1881. She is definitely alone there as well.
hillendfamilyhistory.com/history/occupations/c/Part B – Finding William Curnow (1843 – 1919) and trying to link him to the Hill End William
I have found a William Curnow, born 1843 in Gwennap, Cornwall. I believe he arrived in Victoria in 1863 on the SS Auckland, possibly meeting with his uncle and his family who were living in Sandhurst (now Bendigo, Victoria).
As we know, William is listed as having a hotel/inn in Hill End in about 1872. One of the photos in the Holtermann collection, which is in the NSW State Library is of his hotel. Below is the link to a photo of the Victoria Hotel, Hill End tiltled Group outside William Curnow's Victoria Hotel, Reef Street, Hill End, New South Wales, ca.1872 [picture]. Please compare this photo with the general store photo discussed soon.
nla.gov.au/nla.obj-148058751/viewAnyway, this William is definitely placed in Sandhurst (Bendigo) in 1873 as a temporary resident in bankruptcy paperwork.
I have found a William Curnow in Clunes in about 1878, married to Mary Jane Johns. They were married in 1870. It appears two young girls have been born in 1871 and 1873. Is William their father? In two relationships?
I have done some facial recognition imaging and it appears our two Williams could be one and the same. Please see the below link for the other William.
www.justd.com/robson/Anyway, moving forward to try and confirm this is the same William:
Age: Correct at 29 years in 1872 as per the birth certificate for his son, William born in Hill End.
Immigration: Arrives in 1863 on the SS Auckland, so he's in the country.
Place: Links in Sandhurst (now Bendigo as per the bankruptcy paperwork in 1873 as his uncle and family are there. Clunes and Charlton, where William lived are not that far from Sandhurst.
Employment: Moving between goldfields and surrounds in NSW and Victoria. I have checked and I believe you could get a train most of the way at that time.
Store: The letter work on the hotel in Hill End and the store in Clunes, Victoria are much the same. Even has the full stop at the end of W. Curnow. Please see the links.
nla.gov.au/nla.obj-148058751/viewwww.justd.com/robson/Resemblance: There really is an uncanny resemblance to my father.... as a young and older man. There are photos of William in older age, at the link above. Maybe all Cornishman look the same..... William's hair line is quite distinctive and the beard is the same as in the younger William’s photos.
DNA: I have been chasing three DNA links for Proctors. William's daughter, Amelia Stella from his other proposed family married a Proctor!!! Still chasing this down. I have a 2nd cousin, 4th cousin and 5th cousin Proctor DNA links. They haven't answered my emails.... I have a fairly detailed history of all the other family links and there are no Proctors there. I have honed these DNA links to the Curnow side of the family. DNA through Roger Curnow has also confirmed that the family is probably not from Towednack as we don’t have a DNA match. This fits with a history of family in another area, maybe Gwennap, Cornwall.
I have two DNA cousins (4th -8th) who have a strong Thomas line, hence wanting information about Elizabeth Curnow (1783 – 1828). I am trying to link the family of the proposed William with the known DNA links from other family trees to confirm his identity.
Part C – Problems
William would have had two concurrent marriages in different states. Children were born in 1871 and 1873 to Mary Ann Curnow and 1872 to Ann Curnow. It’s doable. We know he was in Sandhurst in 1873.
My father was trying to confirm William’s ancestry for most of his adult life and I have letters he has written and received from around the world. He would have loved this new internet and DNA age.
Thank you again for the information on Elizabeth. I do love the name Loveday.
I am looking forward to your thoughts on my hypothesis and seeing if I am looking through rose-coloured glasses in order to get a result.
Robyn