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Post by cypressglen1 on Oct 7, 2017 17:16:58 GMT -5
Hi there. My 2x great grandfather John Roach came to Australia in june 1873. He was a miner, married to Elizabeth Jane James, with 2 sons & a daughter. His wife & daughter died on the trip - his wife while the boat was in quarantine in Australia, & John took his 2 very young sons 300km inland to the mine where most of the passengers on the boat were headed. John's mother was Blanch nee Eddy bap. 1809 Towednack died 1868 Curcurian (parents Philip Eddy 1772 Gulval & Grace Ninnes 1775 Towednack). John's father was a Matthew Roberts born abt 1826 Cornwall, a stone cutter or mason. John was in Bodmin Gaol from 6 jan 1849 to 6 april 1849, for disobeying a Bastardy Order. This must have been for my John. I have quite a few generations for Blanch's line, but nothing for Matthew Roberts. Can anyone help with more info on these people? and an insight into life around Towednack at the time would be lovely.
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Post by sue on Oct 8, 2017 10:05:49 GMT -5
Hi If I infer that you know for certain that John Roach 1847 son of Blanch widow was fathered by a Matthew Roberts from having seen a bastardy order/relevant newspaper report as Matthew is not named (per normal) at the 1847 baptism Towednack, then Matthew Roberts was probably the chap enumerated 1841 at Chyangweal (near by Nancledra where Blanch Roach was), age “15”, a tin miner. He seems to be a lodger. The transcript of the 1849 Bodmin gaol time served that you refer to says “stonecutter of Towednack late of Madron age 23”. They may, or may not, be the same person. Finding Matthew Roberts of this area in later censuses I am finding a little tricky, although I have a possible sighting 1881 in Lambeth, London age 57, mason born Penzance that may be worth pursuing – marriage to wife Ann should name his father. Also 1861 Matthew Roberts unmarried lodger in Penzance, stone mason age 32 born Penzance. His could be the marriage on FreeBMD in the Dec. Q of 1864 in the Burton RD to Ann Brown, as in 1881 she declares her birthplace as Staffordshire, before baptizing daughter Eliza in Lambeth 23 July 1865 (FamilySearch). This would most likely equate to the birth Lambeth RD Jun Q 1865 – yet GRO shows mother’s maiden for this birth as Rolfe, so perhaps (if the Burton RD 1864 marriage is the one) Ann was previously married, entirely possible given her age. At the time of the marriage banns 18 September 1864 bride Ann of Dunstall, Matthew of Barton under Needwood, close by each other. (FS) This does not directly address the questions you want answered about Matthew Roberts’ parentage, but sometimes starting to build a picture helps.  Sue P.S. I have just found a Mathew Roberts, stonecutter, age 26 in 1851, place of birth not specified, lodging at St Breward Cornwall with the family of Robert Roberts age 40. Could be related...... |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 8, 2017 15:17:47 GMT -5
Sue - in 1871 this family was living in Staffordshire and this time Matthew stated his birthplace as Barton Under Needwood. Matthew is also a 'licensed victualler and joiner' and has the following children - Hannah age 5, Elizabeth age 3 and Matthew age 1, all born Barton under Needwood. This is almost certainly the family of Ann Brown and you will notice there is no Eliza present.
The only 'familiar face' in this family is son Matthew who is age 1 in 1871 and age 11 in the 1881 Census. BUT!!!! GRO Indexes show the following births:-
Matthew Roberts - 1870 March Qtr Burton Upon Trent R.D. Vol 6b Page 371 - mother's maiden name BROWN
Matthew Roberts - 1869 June Qtr Saint Saviour Surrey R.D. Vol 1d Page 5 - mother's maiden name Rolfe
I would suggest therefore that there are two separate families bearing some confusing similarities.
The first query about this came via a PM to me and although I directed the author of that PM to post on the open forum I did do a little research on it last night.
The Matthew Roberts at Towednack in 1841 is almost certainly the 'culprit' given the information supplied about the prison sentence and Bastardy Order. Also the evidence from those sources suggests Matthew was born in, or shortly before, 1826.
Based on that I checked for all Matthew Roberts (var. of both names) in Cornwall and found just three who were born/baptized between 1820 and 1826. Of those there was one born Roche and one born St Austell who both appear to have died early with the elder of the two dying in 1838 age 14.
With those two gone I could find but one Matthew Roberts who might fit the bill and he was baptized at Redruth 21st August 1824 youngest child to Walter Roberts and Jane Perraw who married at Gwennap in 1803.
A check of FS shows also a Joseph Matthew Roberts baptized at St Agnes in 1826 and, except for those mentioned above, the only other entry in FS between 1820 and 1830 is at Luxullion in 1820. And the only two entries for Madron/Penzance are in 1838 and 1840.
At the moment, at least in my opinion, everything seems to be pointing at the son of Walter from Redruth as being the culprit.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 8, 2017 15:46:05 GMT -5
I should think it a strong possibility this is the same Matthew age 32 at Penzance in 1861. The occupation suggest he is the on from Bodmin Gaol and his age, although a little variable, suggests he might be our 1841 Towednack resident.
If we couple this to the bastardy order information then we might also be looking at the father of John Roach and, once again, at the son of Walter and Jane from Redruth.
CT
PS - just to confirm that Matthew and Ann at Burton Under Needwood 1871 and Matthew and Ann at Lambeth 1881 are two different families - this from GRO Indexes based on the children in each household in the two Censuses:-
1865 Burton Upon Trent - Hannah Roberts - mother's maiden name BROWN
1867 Burton Upon Trent - Elizabeth Roberts - mother's maiden name BROWN
1870 Burton Upon Trent - Matthew Roberts - mother's maiden name BROWN
1865 Lambeth - Eliza Jane Roberts - mother's maiden name ROLFE
1869 St Saviour Surrey - Matthew Roberts - mother's maiden name ROLFE
1872 Lambeth - Ellen Clara Roberts - mother's maiden name ROLFE
As you can see each family had a chid born in 1865 in a different part of the Country and each had a Matthew one year apart.
Difficulty is that I can find no Roberts/Rolfe marriage involving Matthew Roberts.
CT
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Post by sue on Oct 9, 2017 4:42:01 GMT -5
Mea Culpa! I committed the sin of not eliminating the opposition regarding the married couple Matthew Roberts & Ann Brown by not looking for all possible sightings of the couple in the 1871 i.e. the census following the 1864 marriage.  CT, I was also minded that Matthew "seemed" to be the baptism 1824 Redruth to Walter, but didn't like the fact that in both 1871 & 61 his birthplace was stated as Penzance. However, given Walter was buried 1836 Redruth age 59 I would think, per OPC, and there are various Jane Roberts burials to choose from and I wasn't proposing right now to exhaustively identify all the candidates to have been the wife of Walter, it could be their Matthew Roberts 1824 was at least in part brought up by relatives as an orphan, which relatives might have been living in the Penzance area. That would require quite a bit of building up of a picture of Roberts persons in the Penzance area to identify a likely family, although the couple naming a child Matthew at Madron in 1838 might be a starting point to work backwards from....  I have tried all sorts of open-ended combinations to find a marriage of Matthew Roberts to a female whose maiden name was Rolfe, but zilch.... And I'm not finding much luck tracking down an Ann Rolfe born in Staffordshire either side of 1830, either, in a range of records....  Hmmm.... Sue |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 9, 2017 10:14:08 GMT -5
I have tried those approaches re marriages and also Ann Rolfe as well but to no avail. It is possible the marriage simply is not in the indexes or it could be it took place outside the UK. I have a John Trewhella in London 1851 with a wife named Agnes and I also have a death record for Agnes who was supposedly born in Wiltshire (if I remember correctly!). But in this case also no trace of a marriage can be found anywhere.  As for Penzance as a birthplace - yes, he could have been there from a very young age or it may possibly been merely a matter of convenience, especially in London, to use Penzance as a 'known' place to have been born. One fact is certain after viewing the Marriage Certificate and a transcript of the Gaol entry is that all references to Matthew Roberts in Bodmin Gaol and the England and Wales Criminal Registers collection involve the father of John Roach and are the same person at Towednack in 1841 and the 1861 and later 1881 Censuses. And if he was born in Cornwall then it seems he almost certain he would have to be the son of Walter baptized at Redruth in 1825. The trick remains to locate that marriage record ...... if possible!  CT |
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Post by sue on Oct 9, 2017 13:29:03 GMT -5
In the 1881 census, per the transcriptions I have seen, Ann wife of Matthew Roberts is declared as age 54 born SOWBRIDGENORTH Staffs per FMP/FS (i.e. born c. 1827). I have not seen the census image.
It idly occurs to me that I lived for some years in a village called SAWBRIDGEWORTH, although that is a long way from Staffordshire: it is in Hertfordshire, 150+ miles away.
Out of curiosity I tried FS for an Ann Rolfe born Sawbridgeworth, no year specified: and the 1st hit is Ann Rolfe baptized Sawbridgeworth Herts 26 October 1828 to John Halden Rolfe and wife Eliza. Hmm, what with Matthew & Ann having an apparent 1st daughter named Eliza in 1865.
Now, this is a long way from cracking what we need re finding Matthew Roberts’ marriage & hence father’s name, but… I see there is a marriage (FS) of a John Halden Rolfe (Jnr), father John Halden Rolfe, in 1867, Lambeth… and a William Halden Rolfe born c1835 marries in 1856, Lambeth. Also a John Halden Rolfe marries 1848, Westminster to Ann/Harriet/Phoebe.
In 1841 there is a family (again I only have a transcription) that could be Ann’s, in an institution in Lambeth: John & Eliza Rolfe + apparent children John, Ann “12”, James, William, Elizabeth & Samuel.
What I’m hoping to find is perhaps Ann/Matthew nearby/with family in 1871, that may give some clues, but nothing yet…. I often struggle with finding people in censuses in Surrey/Middlesex/London…. I guess the density of population in crammed/bad conditions made enumeration there a particular challenge. And sometimes, e.g. at workhouses, I recall we’ve found people being enumerated by initials only, so that’s A Real Challenge!
Whilst outside of England is feasible, my feeling is that I’m considering the distinct possibility Matthew Roberts & Ann Rolfe never formally married. Of course if that’s the case, there is probably nothing to be gained in continuing the search for Ann or Matthew in the 2nd half of the 19th century.
I think I need to leave this now....
Sue
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Hmmm....
