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Post by jakls on Jun 27, 2017 20:28:12 GMT -5
Hello all. I am a bit stumped on a couple of family lines but I am working on a Berryman line at the moment. I am trying to find out information about a John Berryman of Towednack who was either born in 1808 or 1814. John married Mary Kenifeck (whose family came over to Cornwall from Ireland). I have been looking at Ancestry DNA matches & there may be a connection to a Richard Berryman (b 1753) & Zenobia Stevens (b 1761) of Zennor.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 28, 2017 4:08:34 GMT -5
I have not looked at this family for several years but I am now finding that they are a little more difficult to put together than I recall. But first of all I should answer your question - this John Berryman was baptized at Towednack 16th October 1808 to Nicholas Berryman and Elizabeth Arthur. You can find various children of John in the 1861 Census with different relatives which helps confirm the link. Where this family is a problem is that of 9 (possibly 10) children of John and Mary Ann I can find birth registrations for just three!!! Those three are John (1839), Mary Jane (1840) and Bridget (1843) whilst for baptisms I can find eight with either two or three missing. The discrepancy is a daughter Ann who appears in the 1851 Census aged 4 but not found afterwards. I suspect she is probably the Mary Ann Kenifick Berryman buried at Penzance in November 1851 age 4. I have to look a little deeper into the family for a while before being able to answer many more questions but feel free to post more information and queries at any time. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 28, 2017 6:48:29 GMT -5
I have updated as much as I can for the moment but the updates have not offered anything to change the earlier parts of my database for this family. At this point in time there appears to be no direct link to Richard and Zenobia Berryman. If there is a link it is probably quite distant or, as is more likely, via one of the female lines.
The line for John Berryman/Berriman as I see it (working backwards) is as follows:-
John Berryman (1808 Towednack) m1. Mary Ann Kenifeck 1837 Madron and m2. Elizabeth Stevens nee Penberthy 1852 Towednack
Nicholas Berryman (1778 Towednack) m. Elizabeth Arthur 1804 Towednack
Nicholas Berryman (1743 Towednack) m. Mary Tremelling 1767 St Erth
Nicholas Berryman (bp. not found) m. Jane Trewhella 1732 Towednack
Andrew Berryman (b. not found) m. Elizabeth Rowe 1701 Towednack
Nicholas Berryman (b. not found) m. Margaret Phillips 1666 Zennor
CT
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Post by jakls on Jun 28, 2017 8:40:16 GMT -5
Thanks for the information you have given me, that's awesome. My line comes through George Berryman (John & Mary's son who migrated to New Zealand).
I did wonder if there was more than one Berryman line. I have a lot of DNA matches from Cornwall & knowing so little it's hard to tell how they fit in. I wasn't sure about the birthdate for John Berryman because some records have his age adding up to being born in 1814.
I have other Cornwall lines I will have queries for also.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 28, 2017 16:11:07 GMT -5
There is a thread on this forum now for discussion on DNA testing and results which you might find interesting and also helpful.
CT
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Post by jakls on Jun 29, 2017 7:49:35 GMT -5
Thanks. Do you have any more information about any of the female lines that you listed that married into the Berrymans? It's been great to finally add people in today.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 29, 2017 17:30:20 GMT -5
I probably have at least a little information on each of those mentioned except possibly for Mary Kenifeck. But before you start wandering off in all directions I think it would help if you rechecked all your direct lines back to John Berryman.
You will need to check both paternal and maternal lines and try to confirm each link in turn. If one line is from outside Cornwall then you still need to check it in case of an earlier link back to Cornwall. Even a family from Wales or Durham for example might have earlier links from Cornwall which could explain some DNA matches.
And as you check back don't confine yourself to the male line - make sure you check each maternal line as you come to it. That should at least give you a solid base to work from when trying to sort those matches.
CT
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Post by jakls on Jun 29, 2017 20:13:04 GMT -5
I'm fairly sure of my line back to George Berryman (the son of John & Mary) & his wife Christiana Chapple due to family information that was written down. I don't have too much information on my Chapple line yet.
Is their a connection between Cornwall & Durham? I have some lines from Durham & Northumberland.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 30, 2017 5:11:21 GMT -5
From personal experience I would recommend that you carefully check all written information against original documents where possible. I have been unable to find George Berryman in the 1871 Census which suggests the possibility that he was somewhere overseas at the time and returned by 1875 to be married. I also cannot find his step-mother or other siblings except perhaps for sister Ellen in 1871.
Although it does look probable that your George was the son of John and Mary Ann I do find it curious that his first child was named John Nicholas Berryman. That suggests some sort of link to a Nicholas family but I can find no connection to the families of George Berryman or Christiana Chapple at this stage to explain it.
Do you have any documentation (e.g. Death Certificate) that actually names John and Mary Ann as the parents of George Berryman? If not then it would be a good idea to see if there might be any other possibilities.
I don't know of a direct connection for any of your family to Durham or Northumberland but there were certainly quite a number of Cornish people in those areas and other parts of the UK. Any area where mining was involved was a potential destination for the Cornish so Wales and the North of England were 'popular'.
I have not done a lot of work on this family but I believe Christiana was born at Lelant in 1848 daughter of Joseph Chapel and Margaret Tregear. You need to be aware that Chapel has many variations including Chapple, Chaple, Chappell etc.
CT
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Post by jakls on Jun 30, 2017 6:08:42 GMT -5
I have no documentation that states his parents. I am fairly sure they are the right parents because on the marriage record at the (Cornish OPC database site) for John & Mary it lists an Bridget Kenifeck & Nicholas Berryman as witnesses. Bridget Kenifeck is the sister of Mary & I have a DNA match to a descendant of Bridget. Bridget also married a fellow Irishman so the match should not be coming from somewhere else in Cornwall.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 30, 2017 8:04:22 GMT -5
No - I meant documentation for George Berryman stating the names of his parents. Perhaps his NZ Death Certificate?? The simplest item to help with this would probably be George's Marriage Certificate but as the marriage appears to have taken place at the Register Office (or perhaps a Non-conformitst Chapel) then the certificate would probably need to be purchased. Unfortunately those particular records are not readily available for transcription.
CT
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Post by jakls on Jun 30, 2017 20:30:33 GMT -5
I will look into possibly getting his NZ death certificate. I know that sometimes parents weren't recorded on them though.
I mentioned the marriage record solely because of the Kenifeck DNA match.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 1, 2017 1:49:59 GMT -5
That's okay, but the record for John is accessible so we need to concentrate on George. I'm not sure whether the death certificate for George would show his parents names either as it would depend largely on the informant at his death and the knowledge of that person about the family. If you do decide to spend any money on this it would probably be more sensible to get the marriage certificate for George as that would almost certainly name his father and perhaps the witnesses would be helpful. In other words we know George and his family were in New Zealand and we are unsure about the information on the death certificate. The Marriage Certificate would give us the link we want by the name of his father. It would also be worth checking to see if any of George's siblings went to NZ. CT
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Post by jakls on Jul 1, 2017 3:43:21 GMT -5
Thanks for your help so far. I have looked into the siblings & have found two sisters that went to America, possibly a brother that moved to Wales.
Perhaps I should look into the Chapple line until I have a record on the Berryman line.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 1, 2017 4:33:46 GMT -5
Which brother do you think went to Wales? If you found him in the Census could you give me the details please and I will check it out.
Also any information you have on the two sisters who may have gone to the US might be helpful. I may be able to find a little more if I have enough to work with.
CT
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