ThomasTreloars

[Cornish Terrier]

So the son of Bennet and Jane is most likely at the moment.

Well now, the information you have quoted from Orson Treloar is most interesting but obviously has not entirely solved the problem. But how would you like something else 'of interest' which blows the whole thing wide open!!

I have just taken a look at the burials for 1754 from the Wendron Parish Register (image available on FamilySsearch) and it actually helps reinforce one of the comments I made a couple of days ago. Here is what I have found:-

Wendron Parish Register - Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, 1560-1812 Image 265 (FamilySearch)
Burials - 1754
Thomas son of Bennet Treloar was buried September 20th
Thomas son of Thomas Treloar was buried November 29th

Now, it would appear, you really do have a problem!!

The approach now, especially as no ages are recorded, is to see if there were any other Thomas Treloar's (sic.) to contend with. I used the search terms of 'Tho' for the forename and 'Tr%l' for the surname which offers a wider possibility of variations.

Using the OPC database I have made a search for any Thomas Treloars baptised between 1730 and 1754 where the father was either Benjamin/Benedict/Bennet or Thomas. The list is as follows:-

4th February 1745 - Crowan - Thomas son of Thomas and Ury Treloar
24th March 1751 - Wendron - Thomas son of Thomas and Uriah Treloar
9th June 1751 - Helston - Thomas son of Bennet and Jane Treloar of Wendron
17th November 1754 - Helston - Thomas son of Thomas and Elizabeth Treloar

That is it and it makes for some interesting reading don't you think?

Another look at possible burials using the same search terms (tho tr%l) but now starting from 1745 and ending 1760 gives the following:-

14th December 1746 - Wendron - Thomas Treloar
24th February 1747 - Wendron - Thomas son of Thomas Treloar
20th September 1754 - Wendron - Thomas son of Bennet Treloar
29th November 1754 - Wendron - Thomas son of Thomas Treloar

I think we can ignore the first burial which in this case appears to be an adult but we now know for certain that my theory was wrong and that your Thomas Treloar cannot have been the son of Bennet. That leaves an interesting problem and I am extremely tempted to suggest that Orson Treloar is also incorrect when stating it was the son of Thomas and Ury/Uriah who died in 1751!
If you look at the dates of baptism and burial you should notice that the son of Thomas and Elizabeth was baptised just 12 days before the 1754 burial of Thomas son of Thomas Treloar. I am inclined to suspect this burial might in fact be the son of Thomas and Elizabeth rather than of Thomas and Ury.

Hmmm - expanding my baptism search further I have now discovered that Thomas and Ury baptised another son Thomas in 1757 so the November 1754 burial would almost certainly have been their son. Also noteworthy is that they also baptised a son named Bennet!

Whichever way you want to look at this problem there is now little doubt that your two options for Thomas Treloar (bp. 1751) are now both well and truly out of the equation!

Aside from the possible error with the recorded age at burial you now need to consider the following:-

1. the baptism of your Thomas was either not recorded or is lost through damage to a register
2. your Thomas may have been an illegitimate child baptised under a different name
3. a burial may not have been recorded, may be lost or may not yet be transcribed
4. there may be transcription errors involved

CT

[deejay8]

Hi CT, Well it does seem that something is amiss and the 1751 Thomas boys are both sadly child deaths .

I do find the page of Orson Treloar's book about Thomas and Uriah/Ury's children to throw up some questions. They appear to have had 3 boys named Thomas? One baptised in Crowan in 1745, another baptised in Wendron 1751 and then another baptised in Crowan in 1757. Surely that would mean that the Thomas born in 1745 died as well? I'll have a look later.

I do rather think our Thomas Treloar may remain a mystery. We know where he lived,who he married,who his children were and where he died. But where he was born and who his parents are may elude us. There were no Treloars in that area before him so he is almost certainly from one of the Treloars from the Wendron/Cambourne/Redruth area but will probably always be a mystery. Certainly Orson Treloar acknowledges that there are Treloars in West Penwith,but doesn't attempt to connect them to the rest of the family,which I'm sure he would have done if he could.

[Cornish Terrier]

Surely that would mean that the Thomas born in 1745 died as well?

Yes, he will be the Thomas son of Thomas Treloar buried 24th February 1747 at Wendron as per my list of four burials form my last note.

I do rather think our Thomas Treloar may remain a mystery.

Not necessarily! I'm not quite sure about your quote saying we know where he died and I am certainly not yet convinced of that. Accepting the 1823 Burial at face value (or because someone said it was so) serves more to cloud judgement than anything else. The age recorded in that event is something that concerns me for a start because after looking at the image I am not totally happy that it is 73 at all. The second digit is definitely a 3 but there is some doubt about the first being a 7.
The one part of that entry that is interesting is that Thomas Treloar was 'of Lower Downs' when he died. Since my last post I have been hunting around for more information on the family and I discovered that Hannah Treloar, daughter of Thomas and his second wife Sarah, married Joseph Firstbrook at St Hilary in 1818. Two months later their first child was baptised at St Hilary and the abode was also 'Lower Downs'. That does give us a possible link to the Thomas Treloar of the 1823 burial and I should add that the marriage was witnessed by Thomas Treloor.
Another interesting item I looked at was the marriage record for Henry Treloar and Elizabeth Curnow at Gulval in 1833. The interesting thing about this is that the marriage was also witnessed by a Thomas Treloor whose signiature is quite similar to that of the man witnessing the Firstbrook marriage above. If this were the same man then obviously the 1823 burial would be for someone else however there is another possibility.
When Thomas Treloar junior married Honor Wedlock in 1804 he signed the register with his mark which suggests that Thomas could not write. But it is possible that he learned to read and write after being married so he could be the witness to Henry's marriage.
Regardless of which Thomas was the witness in 1833 it is also noteable that the surname was spelt as TRELOOR. For both marriages of the elder Thomas (1780 to Catherine Thomas and 1788 to Sarah Noal) and the 1818 marriage of Hannah Treloar Thomas signed his surname as TRELOOR so either the elder Thomas lived beyond 1833 or his son learned to read and write and continued with his father's way of spelling the name.

One other thing concerns me about this problem is that I am yet to find a burial or a possible second marriage for Thomas's second wife Sarah and I can also not find her in the Census.

For what will probably be my final comments on this problem for tonight I will offer another solution. I have already shown that both Thomas Treloars baptised in 1751 appear to have died in 1754 thus eliminating them from the equation. But I also added another interesting possibility which I have followed up on a little more.

That possibility is the Thomas Treloar baptised in November 1754 to Thomas and Elizabeth Treloar. I also checked for other possible marriages for a Thomas Treloar to anyone named Elizabeth but found just one that could be involved in the scenario. Here is the resultant family group:-

Thomas Treloar married Elizabeth Pasco 25th May 1746 at Sithney
John son of Thomas and Elizabeth Treloar baptised 25th October 1746 at Sithney
Mary daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth Treloar baptised 5th March 1748/9 at Sithney
Thomas son of Thomas and Elizabeth Treloar baptised 17th November 1754 at Helston
Hannah daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth Treloar baptised 15th May 1760 at Helston
Joseph son of Thomas and Elizabeth Treloar baptised 29th May 1763 at Helston
Elizabeth daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth Treloar baptised 26th May 1765 at Helston

Remembering my comments earlier about delayed baptisms and then looking at the list above opens the possibility that there may have been several delayed baptisms in this family .... including Thomas!
And also of interest, at least to me, is the name of the second daughter ..... Hannah!

Amongst the children of your Thomas Treloar there were just 3 daughters - Elizabeth (1781), Elizabeth (1782) and Hannah (1788) and I find that most interesting when looking at the above list, especially when you consider that the wives of Thomas were named Catherine and Sarah.

CT

[deejay8]

Hi CT,
Well I was just looking into the possibility that the Thomas baptised to Thomas and Elizabeth in 1754 in Helston. That branch of the family are from just up the hill from the place of baptism at Helston,in Sithney,so it makes more geographical sense as Sithney is on the road that runs through to the St Hilary and Gulvul parishes,so just a few miles and much closer than the Wendron/Crowan/Stithians area. Also we now know that the burials in 1854 are the discounted boys baptised in 1751. So that does put that Thomas back as a possibility,and as you say the names Elizabeth and Hannah are strong clues. So I will dig some more as well and see if I can find anything else.

[Cornish Terrier]

It would be wise also to look at any other possible marriages for a Thomas Treloar from around 1778 to say about 1800 to see if any might possibly be the son of Thomas and Elizabeth.
A process of elimination would be required again so each Thomas Treloar married would have to be identified with a probable baptism. If all can be reasonably identified and Thomas of 1754 is still 'available' then the chances of him being your man will be much better.

Also, don't be too transfixed by the geography of this. Wendron is one of the larger Parishes in Cornwall and if you look at a parish map of Cornwall it is probably 25-30 times the size of Helston which is bounded on three sides by Wendron and on the West by Sithney. And Sithney's border with Wendron is around five times the length of its boundary with Helston.
If you consider this and then take into account that a person born in Wendron could be born in any part of that large Parish then the fact that a road leads from Wendron Village through Helston and straight to Sithney Village really means little. And even earlier than this there are records of a Towednack man being married and having children way up at St Neot before returning to Towednack again.

CT

[deejay8]

I guess it's easy to make the mistake of thinking Sithney means the village of Sithney and Wendron as the village and not thinking as parishes which are much bigger in Cornwall.

I'm going through the possible Thomas Treloar marriages at the moment. I found 6 and I've eliminated 4 easily and I'm trying to search through the remaining two tougher ones.

[Cornish Terrier]

Okay, keep at it and please post your progress. If I get a chance when I get home tomorrow I will see if there might be anything I can add.

CT

[deejay8]

Well I managed to find 6 records that could fit and discounted 4 but am left with 2 I can't pin down.

The 4 discounted are Thomas Treloar marrying

1. Mary Davies 1781 - This is the son of Thomas and Ury that we have looked at already.

2. Sarah Noal 1788 - The second marriage of our Thomas Treloar that we know about.

3.Alice Rogers 1796 - The son of Thomas Treloar and Blandina Roberts.

4.Jenipher Treloar 1797- Thomas is son of John Treloar and Elizabeth Thomas.

The marriages that are still unaccounted for are

Mary Gill 1787 Wendron

Margaret Kneebone 1797 Helston

I can't find any clue as to the parents of the Thomas Treloars in these marriages.

[Cornish Terrier]

And you should add the following marriages at Stithians:-

Thomas Treloor and Jenefer Marten married 1784
Thomas Treloor and Ann Chegwidden married 1793

Stithians is not that far away and it is best to check all possible marriages just to be sure. It was not unusual for someone to be married away from home and there are plenty of examples of people from the West of Cornwall being married in Devon for example. In fact one of my Trewhellas married his second wife in Devon in 1756.

But I think I can eliminate Stithians in any case. Although I cannot find a baptism for the first Thomas above (at least not easily) the names used for his children suggest he was a son of Thomas Treloore and Grace Jenkin who married at Perranarworthal in 1750. The second Thomas (m. Ann Chegwidden) appears to have been his son.

I should have a bit of time to check through some of the rest later and will let you if I find anything of interest.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

The marriages that are still unaccounted for are

Mary Gill 1787 Wendron

Margaret Kneebone 1797 Helston

I can't find any clue as to the parents of the Thomas Treloars in these marriages.

Thomas Treloar and Mary Gill - if you search for all children from say about 1775 to 1800 where the father's name was Thomas it can give you some clues. If you scan the list of children for anything that might seem unusual you will see the name Daniel appear at least a couple of times. In 1780 and again in 1790 there is a Daniel baptised to Thomas and MARY Treloar so that becomes a possible means of identification.

The question to be asked is 'where does the name Daniel come from?'

The second entry (1790) is a couple of years after Thomas Treloar married Mary Gill so there is a good chance he belongs to them but the earlier Daniel was baptised seven years before this marriage and the year before Thomas Treloar and Mary Davies were married.
As the earlier Daniel cannot belong to either Mary Davies or Mary Gill I searched back a little further and found that there was a marriage at Constantine in 1768 between a Thomas Treloar of Wendron and Mary Bowden.

A quick OPC search shows no likely match for a Daniel Davies (var.) or a Daniel Gill anywhere near a time that could link with Mary Davies or Mary Gill and there is but one Daniel Bawden/Bowden baptised at Truro in 1716. The logical assumption then is that the name Daniel most probably comes from the Treloar side.
If we then search Treloar (sic.) baptisms again we find a number of Daniels baptised to either Bennet Treloar or Daniel Treloar between 1728 and 1770 so the logical conclusion would be that the Thomas Treloar who married Mary Gill was probably also a son of either a Bennet or a Daniel Treloar. I would suggest he was probably baptised at Sithney in 1764 to Thomas Treloar and Loveday Tocker who married in January of that year at Wendron. (There was another Thomas Treloar married Loveday James at Wendron in 1765 and they appear to have had a son named Thomas in 1774)

Thomas Treloar and Margaret Kneebone - He could be the Thomas Treloar alias Jewell age 53 buried at Helston in 1798 but otherwise I can't find anything definite on him or Margaret. There appear to have been no children either so no clues to be gained there.

CT

[deejay8]

So it's likely that Thomas Treloar and Elizabeth Pasco are our couple, but the Kneebone marriage seems to be the only one left to mess that theory up. I'll do some digging into the Kneebone family later.

Well done on eliminating the Gill possibility.

[Cornish Terrier]

Yep, at the moment it does look like Thomas Treloar and Elizabeth Pasco might be the answer.

It would be worth doing a thorough workout on that family including a search for Wills. Finding the rest of the children along with marriages etc. might be useful in proving whether or not your Thomas belongs.

CT

[deejay8]

I've started looking at the other children of Thomas and Elizabeth and I've found some of their marriages,so I will look through those and see what I find that adds to the picture.
My feeling is that Thomas Treloar had to have arrived in St Hilary from somewhere,and as most of the Treloar family from Wendron and Crowan has been so well researched by others,then it has to be from one of these other Treloars and we've discounted nearly all of them,so I think we are probably on the right path.

[Cornish Terrier]

I don't know what research you have seen that has been done by 'others' but I suspect what some of it 'might' be. Regardless of the source it is always a good idea to check for yourself as 'everyone else' is 'not always' right!

Research done on part of my family by a cousin of my great-grandfather was apparently researched as well but after a period I discovered that things didn't seem quite right and after a 'total reconstruction' by myself I noticed quite a large difference!!!

CT

[deejay8]

I'm referring to the work of Orson Lee Treloar who has pretty much covered the Wendron Treloars. It usually pays to double check things.