Confusion with Penrose Ancestors.

[fairygrandma1]

G'day Cornish Terrier and other brilliant minds,

I have recently learnt of my 12x grt Grandfather who was one William PENROSE, supposedly born either in 1560 in Sennen or 1548 in Botallack, both being recorded as the father of my 11x grt, Richard b.1592 of Merther who married Dennys/Dionis HOSKINS.

Apparently there is some confusion depending on whose research one looks at! One thing is clear, he was the son of Bennett PENROSE & Jane LANYON, aside from that fact the rest is an absolute mess of inconsistancies as to who was born when, who married Dionis HOSKINS and how old they were when they were giving birth to the following generations!

The PENROSE "facts" as recorded by either lds.org family trees or the monkey-puzzle trees to be found on Ancestry:

Grandparents (13xgrts): Bennett PENROSE born c1519, Sennen and Jane LANYON born c1519, Cornwall, married c1556, Sennen. I don't know who found these dates but I have not been able to confirm any of them as yet.

Father (12xgrt), no mother known:

William b1548 Botallack -d1640 Merther.

William b1560 Sennen-d1640 Merther, this William rather cleverly married Elizabeth ENYS twice, the first time was the year before he was born, 1599, and the second time when he was 11 years old, in 1571!!!

William is blamed for the birth of the following:

Richard 1560-1624

William 1565

Un-named dau 1567-1640
William 1574
Un-named dau 1576
Un-named dau 1578

Richard 1580-1610

Richard 1580-1624 +++ (see below)

William 1588-1640

Dionis 1590

Richard 1591/92-1624

Constance 1594

The next generation is equally as clever...

Richard 1580-1624+++ then marries Dennis Unknown and has the following (in his infancy!):

Nicholas 1580 (born same yr as Dad???)

William 1584-1671 (marries Barbara) (Dad now 4yrs old)

Richard 1600

Now I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but even I can tell that there are just one or two rather glaring errors to be found in that lot??? Is anyone working on this era who might be able to help me sort out this lot PUHLEEESE?

Any assistance muchly appreciated!

Fairygrandma1.

[londoner]

As there are no Parish Records for Sennen prior to 1700 it might be assumed that these trees a based on wills and leases. The will of William Penrose who died 1640 of Merthyr is held at Cornwall Record Office and they also have leases from the mid 1500s which mention a Penrose at Escalls, Sennen. If you haven't Already do have a look at their online catalogue and their copying charges if you are unable to visit

[Cornish Terrier]

Agreed! - as far as I am aware there are not even any surviving Bishops Transcripts for Sennen or Set Levan prior to 1700 and I am not sure there are any after that date. Wills along with Deeds and Leases may be the only way to piece anything together.

You might also see what the Visitations have to offer but be aware they are not to be relied upon for accuracy either!! At least they might give some clues to work from.

CT

[trencrom]

Hello fairygrandma1,

I have not researched this particular family, but as someone who has done a lot of work on early families generally I will offer the following comments:
I think your caution about these "facts" is justified, and I personally would not be relying on trees found in the sources that you mentioned, and certainly not for the period of time that we are talking about as I have seen lots of errors therein.
Just reading through your post it seems that there is no certain knowledge concerning your William's origins. I also wonder where the years of birth and marriage that you found came from. If the parish registers for that time and place do not go that far back then these dates may be just speculation.
The problem is once erroneous data gets on the Net it tends to be copied and recopied by one family historian after another.
However IIRC there are not one but two Penrose families in the 1620 visitation of Cornwell, and it may be that some data has come ultimately from there. One Penrose family was at Sennen according to the same. The visitations are now on the Net. I would also check Stoate's books (not available on the Net as fas as I know) for the 1522 military survey, the 1523 and 1544 tax subsidies and also the 1569 muster to see what Penroses are listed in Cornwall in those years, and where.

Loved reading your post,
Trencrom



PS I have just had a look at Vivian's visitation pedigree for Penrose of Sennen. It is taken from the 1573 (not 1620) visitation. Bennet who married Jane daughter of William Lanyon has a son William. Jane is named as the first wife and Bennet has children from all 3 marriages. There are no dates shown for any of these people. There is no mention of Botallack. William's marriage and/or children are not shown.

The 1573 pedigree shows 4 generations of ancestors to Bennett, with Vivian (the 19th century genealogist) adding a further 3 generations for which he cites contemporary sources.

The second Penrose pedigree in Vivian's collection is Penrose of Sithney. This family goes back as far as the other one, and therefore we appear to have two separate Penrose families. This one has a Richard and a William, but this William appears to be too young to be yours and the Richard is a son of a Bernard Penrose whose (i.e. Bernard's)younger brother died around 1604 as there is an inventory in that year for him.

I should point out that as the visitation pedigrees were intended to show the gentry and/or armigerous status of the informant to the heralds, they often do not show siblings in generations earlier than the then current one. This is frustrating at times for us as it is often these missing siblings that are the folk that we may be looking for.

Hope this helps,
Trencrom

[Cornish Terrier]

I would also check Stoate's books (not available on the Net as fas as I know) for the 1522 military survey, the 1523 and 1544 tax subsidies and also the 1569 muster to see what Penroses are listed in Cornwall in those years, and where.

The OPC site has transcribed at least some of the Musters and shows Bennet Penrose at Sennen in 1569 with a 'bow sh.arr. (sheaf of arrowas?) scull sallet'. There is also a Jose Penrose at St Buryan in 1569 who is perhaps a little better off as he has a 'handgun'!
There are 9 Penrose entries in total in the OPC list with 2 at Cubert, 1 at Illogan, and others at Budock, Sithney, St Martin in Meneage and St Keverne.

There don't appear to be any Subsidies on the OPC site itself but there is some information on West Penwith Resources - west-penwith.org.uk/sentax.htm.
The Sennen OPC has a website with similar information - sennenopc.vingoe.name/

On both of these you will find a transcript of the 1545 Subsidy for Sennen. Bennet Penrose does not appear but there is a Josse Penrose which suggests to me the possibility that this might be the father of Bennet.

CT

[lipkatatar]

Hi fairygrandma1!

Have you checked out the penrose.org website? Like all online databases it should be used with caution as a guide to research, but it seems to be well researched in relation to the Penrose family.

[fairygrandma1]

My Goodness you guys are sharp!!! Many thanks to each of you for taking the time to help me sort this mess out!

My original information was found on the Penrose.org site, being "Some Fabulous Pedigrees". I then checked as many trees as I was able to tolerate, the majority of which had blindly copied each other seemingly oblivious to any errors in dates. I am quite allergic to that kind of "research" and try to verify as much as possible, but this family had me questioning who was "more correct" and where/when/how they had come to their conclusions!

I hadn't researched back this far before so I have no knowledge of what records are available on-line for this time period, I will check out all those that you have suggested over the next few weeks. I really have a problem with anyone who doesn't complete event a basic check before putting "their" work on-line!

Returning to the mess, I kinda figured there had to be more than one family but could not find anything to differentiate who belonged to whom. Apparently Bennett PENROSE married at least three times, firstly to Jane LANYON to whom he has four children...

First-born child, William Penrose (Yeoman), is recorded as having been born c.1548 in Botallack. His first child, William is recorded as being born c1574, then the next child is not born until 1590 closely followed by two siblings in 1592. No wife/mother is recorded but that is not to be expected as they were rarely ever recognized as being a part of the process and certainly not important enough to have been recorded at the Baptism!!!

Now I had thought that there were no records to substantiate these date claims and you have all verified that fact (many thanks!). But you have quoted other sources which I had not known were available on-line which I will follow up on later. My alarm was raised when I saw the differences in ages of William's children and this is when I thought to mine-self... Aha! Two different families/generations but how does one "prove" the connection???

Personally I don't like gaps where one or more siblings are more than 15 years apart without other children being born/dying in-between to complete a very large family! Without "proof" of other children, any siblings, known or not known, may be the parent of one or more of the grandchildren. Now I don't know about anyone else but I can't simply jump a generation and assume parentage! I'm too old-school for that!!!

I will now go ahead and search for Wills, visitation records etc but I seriously doubt that I will be able to "prove" something that no-one else has ever been able to verify I'm surely not the first to have questioned this family??? Why would these records suddenly give up their secrets just because they have been transcribed and put on-line??? I am assuming that the owner of "Some Fabulous Pedigrees" has done their homework, he/she certainly has done a LOT of work prior to throwing it to the wolves/putting it on-line.

Mind you, in saying that, I would like to know how they verified the birth/marriage & death record for their claim of a direct pedigree connection to "Michael(Adam in Mortality) 1st mortal father" and his wife, "Eve Adam, 1st mortal mother" who apparently married "bef 4000BC"!!! I can't say as I know of any records that they were clever enough to write and keep for future generations to research??? The site's only quoted source was the Bible, I wonder if they had other verifiable proof of every connecting generation??

"If" their claim is 'correct' then Adam & Eve are my 110x grt grandparents. I'm sorry but this cracks me up, I can NOT keep a straight face when telling others of these famous ancestors of mine! I have recently received my DNA parcel and when it is eventually returned and the results become available you can bet that one of the first connections I will be looking at will be my connection to Adam & Eve just so I can lay that claim to rest one way or another!!!

Does anyone else have verifiable proof of their line of ascent to such heights??? I would be more than happy to learn of how one goes about proving such a connection. I know that the Royalty have had some incredible pedigrees completed and that they have been researched to death but there comes a day where records were not kept and to blindly assume a connection is just laughable. So who kept Adam and Eve's family records and was there room on the Ark to store all the records safely from the Great Flood??? Why haven't we learnt from this magnificent act how to keep modern records safe from fire/floods/wars etc???

Ahhhhh!!! My question now is can I trust a site with this claim to base my research when there are no church records available to verify them??? I have not yet found ANY other PENROSE pedigrees that have not copied this site and, until such times as I can find proof, my pedigree will cease at the last proven connection that I can honestly say that I have personally researched and verified.

Thanks again to the sage advice given in this thread, I will follow through I assure you. Until then I will eagerly await your learned comments on this posting re Adam & Eve!!! It should provide us all with a little light-hearted humour if nothing else!!!

I do apologise most profusely if I have somehow offended anyone with my sacrilegious comments, it was not intended to offend, rather to open up discussion on the laughable record keeping of that day and age, any advice is most appreciated.

Kindly,
Fairygrandma1.

[fairygrandma1]

PS... Just to confirm my findings, the source of penrose.org states the following (please excuse my cutting and pasting, I can only hope that I have not broken any copyright laws!!!):

Directly from the notes found on penrose.org/getperson.php?personID=I12919&tree=penrose

Notes
◦Michael was the immortal personage later born as a premortal child of God and placed in the
Garden of Eden and by his own choice became our 1st Mortal father by partaking of the forbidden
fruit and introducing mortality to his earthly children.
Luke 3:38 "Adam which was the son of God" (ie; both as to spirit being, and to the premortal flesh)
Matt 19:4-6 "Have ye not read that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
And said, For this cause shall a man leave FATHER and MOTHER, and shall cleave to his wife: and
they twain shall be one flesh?"
Michael is the name given for the premortal spirit personage - who became Adam our
First Mortal Father & progenitor of the mortal race.
Most records Show Adam as born abt 4004 BC following Bishop Ushers calculations.
Joseph Smith indicates that Adam was very nearly a thousand years old at his death (abt 999.5 years)
not 930 years as indicated by the King James version of the Bible. See The Life of Edward Stevenson p.13
Kumu Honua (Adam) md Lalo Honua (Eve)
Adam and Eve by their separate and individual acts initiated that probationary existence known as
mortality, subjecting both themselves and their posterity to this environement. Following the "fall"
and after witnessing to God their desire to do his will they were told that the Lord had devised a way
for them to escape everlasting punishment, and that by obedience to the commandments of the
Lord all who would repent, by doing the required commandments, could receive forgiveness and
receive eternal life, each being judged by his own acts toward the laws given, judgement to be received
at a future time to be determined by the Lord and rewards or punishment offered in accordance
with individuals desires and performances. Adam was the first writer in the History of mankind
though the original records are not available except through later Prophets who incorporated or included parts in their writings.
Genesis 5:2 "Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam" - The first Surname
of record applying to all mortal mankind.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to me....

I do believe that "If it is found on-line then it MUST be true!!!" No??? Well, they have quoted from the most published book on earth and "If it is written in a book, therefore it MUST be true!!!" Yes???

Now I am NOT asking for a lesson in theology no matter your beliefs, I respect that we all have our own thoughts on that and the discussion could get quite heated, personal and ugly. No!, I am simply asking for a discussion on where/when/how these records were taken/kept/stored for future researchers, such as ourselves, to have the pleasure of cutting and pasting and putting them on-line as "proof" of descent/ascent/pedigree!!!

What are the earliest (Cornish) records available and how can I access them from my lil Aussie Lounge-room on my loyal laptop??? I am a good three and a half hour drive from my local LDS reading rooms so I have to rely on on-line records or the goodness of others who take the time to read forums such as this and answer ridiculous questions with a straight face and a learned opinion. Thank-goodness for those volunteers who make this possible!!! I thank each and every one of you for your time and devotion to our cause, it does not go un-noticed believe me!!!

Byeee,
Fairygrandma1.

[Cornish Terrier]

EGAD!! Methinks you might have conversed with me in days gone by!!!!

Regarding Cornish records, available or not! - You could start with the fact that in 1538 Cromwell (I believe) issued the decree that the recording of births/baptisms, marriages and burials should be undertaken in a manner with some form of order about it. Mark this as the beginning Parish Registers.

Whilst 1538 was the date all this was supposed to officially begin you should be aware that not all places were happy with the news of all this extra paperwork and so recording of these events did not actually begin when it was supposed to. And even if the keeping of such records did commence 'on time' many of those records have not survived or many that have survived are so badly damaged that they are unreadable.
In Cornwall you will find records in some Parishes that do begin quite early - 1560 for Redruth and 1563 for St Erth are examples - whilst in other Parishes such as Sennen and St Levan you will find nothing before 1699/1700.

But don't assume that because records in a Parish begin at a certain date you will find ALL records thereafter! Take the Parish of St Issey for example which register contains a Memorandum dated May 26th 1752. This Memorandum contains the following information:-

That the Register Book was in the custody of Mr Powell during the time he was Curate of St Issey.
That the baptisms for the years 1746 and 1747 were all blotted out while the book was in his custody.
He refused to make one entry of Baptism from this time until his death in October 1751.
No entry of Burial or Marriage was entered during his Curacy!!

And other Parishes have records that are very 'patchy' being excellent for periods and then damaged or missing for other periods. Even during the 19th Century there are registers missing or so badly damaged as to be unreadable!

So you begin with Registers commencing on or sometime after 1538 which gives that date as the earliest you might trace back to with those resources. Beyond that you would need Wills, Leases, Deeds or other Official Records that might survive and you will find many of those at the County Record Office or in the National Archives.
For these types of records you will find much indexing has been done so it is possible to navigate your way to something that might be of some use. For the Cornwall Record Office this link will get you started - crocat.cornwall.gov.uk/DServe/searchpage.htm

You might also find something interesting in British History Online - www.british-history.ac.uk/

And then there is the Nation Archives 'Discovery' link - discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

I think there is also a site for Medieval History but I don't seem to have the link. Perhaps Lipkatatar might be able to help with that one.

CT

[lipkatatar]

A few thoughts on Bennett, son of Joceus and father of William Penrose.


The earliest mention I have found of Joce Penrose, gent. is in 1538 when he leased property at Brane to a John Hoblyn. (CRO Ref: R1252)

In 1551 Joceus was party to a sale of property to John Penrose of Metheley (CRO Ref: RP/6/37)

In 1544/6 "Joceus Penros of Seynt Zenan gentilman" was involved in a dispute over trespass with John Mylaton, esq.

aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/H8/CP40no1120/aCP40no1120fronts/IMG_6357.htm
aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/H8/CP40no1124/aCP40no1124fronts/IMG_0658.htm
aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H8/CP40no1127/aCP40no1127fronts/IMG_0925.htm

In 1554 Joyce Penrose granted property in Penrose, Respletha, and Brane, Bosence and Zelena in Sancreed to Radulph Penrose, Jn. Treuryn and Wm. Lanyon. (CRO Ref: R/1157) It would be useful to check out this transaction as it may cast some light on a Bennett Penrose - Johanne Lanyon marriage. Also, it would be useful to know if the Radulf mentioned here was Joyce's brother or his grandson, the son of Bennett.

In 1578/9 Radulf Penrose of Penrose, gent. sold property to Jn. Rashleigh of Fowley. (CRO Ref: R/1158; R/4465; R/1159) A year later, probably as part of the same deal, Jn. Rashleigh leased back some of this property, at Selena, to Joce's widow Margaret and her son Richard. If Bennett was indeed the son of Joceus and father of Raphe then it appears that he was dead by 1578 - possibly by 1554.


In 1578 Raphe Penrose set up an annuity of £25 per annum for his wife Eleanor (which she sold for £120 in 1599, by which time she had remarried). This is probably related to the later 1586 court case over the manor of Tredinnyal.

Apart from Vivian's Visitations, the earliest reference that I can find to a Bennett Penrose is in Richard Polwhele's "The History of Cornwall, Civil, Military, Religious", 1816. In Book 2, between pp.42-3, a pedigree of Lanion of Lanion in Maderne has Johanna daughter of William Lanyon and Thomasine Trugian as the wife of Benedict Penrose. There is no indication of how Benedict fits into the Penrose pedigree.

In Vivian's Visitations of 1620, 1864 Edition, p.169, there is a footnote that places Bennett as father of Raphe and son of Joce Penrose. "Chancery Proceedings A.D. 1586, Eliz.,M.m.2, No.52. Peter Mark of Liskard v. Martin Diggow and or's. Claims Manor of Tredinnyal by purchase from Raphe Penrose of St. Syney (son of Bennet P., son of Joce Penrose), who granted a lease to defendants in Botallack in St. Just, part of said manor."

Vivian appears to be referring to the proceedings below:

National Archive Reference: C 2/Eliz/M2/52. Date: [Between 1558 and 1603]
Plaintiffs: Peter Marke. Defendants: Martin Dowgow and John Diggin and others.
Subject: Claim by purchase. The manor of Tredynny [Tredinney], whereof the fourth part of all lands and tenements called Botallocke [Botallack], in the parish of St Just, Cornwall, being the inheritance of Ralph Penrose, divided by metes and bounds, and the remaining three parts demised and reputed parcel; which premesis plaintiff purchased of the said Ralphe Penrose.

You would have to access this National Archive record to see whether Bennett and Joce Penrose are actually named in the proceedings or whether Vivian was just making an assumption about Raphe's ancestry.

After all this, you are still left with the problem of proving that your William, father of Richard was indeed the son of Bennett Penrose and Johanne Lanyon. You stated in your original post that this was a fact, but I can find no evidence for this other than Vivian's claim that Raphe had a younger brother named William. Vivian claims that all the information on the Penrose of Sennen family presented in the 1887 edition of the Visitations, from Bennett's great-great-grandfather to his grandson Richard Penrose of Feock and his wife Anna Vernam, came from the 1573 Visitations. This is clearly not the case as the marriage of Richard and Anna only took place in 1620. In this later edition Vivian also ignores the Penrose pedigrees given in the 1864 edition of the 1620 Visitations. It is all very confusing.


Have you checked the wills of William and Richard Penrose mentioned on the Penrose.org site?

[fairygrandma1]

Thank you CT and Lipkatatar, I really do appreciate your help in this matter! I only took Bennet being William's father as it has been on every pedigree that I have sighted, I should have known better shouldn't I??? I will take on board all that you have said and cited and add it to my files for future reference.

I will also be advising any other researchers who contact me to ignore ALL on-line pedigree charts that do not have citations or some form of source to verify "their" work unless they themselves verify their facts.

I only wish you guys covered all the other English counties, you would make life so much easier!!!

[Cornish Terrier]

I just LOVE ( ) all those family trees on Ancestry that quote multiple Sources.

And then when you go in to the tree to have a look at the Sources you will find that those Sources are ......... ANCESTRY FAMILY TREES!!!!!