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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 26, 2014 9:16:41 GMT -5
Excellent, thankyou Zibetha. CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Aug 27, 2014 1:56:32 GMT -5
I show Elizabeth’s father, John Nicholas, as son of John Nicholas and Martha Hodge; Martha Hodge as daughter of William Hodge and his second wife Margaret Ford; Margaret Ford as daughter of Richard Ford and Prudence Strick. See post in THREAD: Cornish Ancestors Oct 21, 2011 reply from Mary Chown for the Ford/Strick connection. Thanks to CT, she and I found out we are both descendants of William Ford and Arabella Mills. I've looked at Mary Chown's post and updated my database where necessary. Mary says William Ford and Arabella are her 5xgreat-grandparents. That would make Francis and Amye, William's parents, her 6xgreat-grandparents. Through brother Richard, Francis and Amye are my 7xgreat-grandparents. That would make Mary and myself seventh cousins, once removed (I think!)
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Post by zibetha on Aug 27, 2014 2:19:36 GMT -5
I am one step down-- so, Cornish cousins we are. Not too surprising!
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Post by spikeharwood on Sept 21, 2014 4:19:52 GMT -5
Having established that John Whinnen was correctly assigned to parents Richard and Peninah, I then had some degree of difficulty finding a baptism for Peninah (nee Williams) and the marriage of her parents. The usual suspects gave a year of birth as 1815 at Breage, her parents as James Williams (b1776) and Peninah Blee(b1782) and no marriage date. James as the father looked ok as he was named as such on the marriage record. She was shown as of full age. This indicated a dob of 1818 or earlier. The 1871 census suggested 1815 as did her death in 1878, aged 63. However, C41 suggested nothing earlier than 1817, as did C51, while C61 suggested 1818. Peninah Blee had three siblings: Stephen, Edward and Ann (bpt 1792). On further investigation we find an Edward (as Edwd) Blee Williams bpt at Breage 8 Jun 1823. Parents are James and Ann. Father's occupation is blacksmith, same as on Peninah's marriage record. Was Ann Blee, not Peninah the actual mother and wife? We find a marriage record for James on the OPC for 20 Feb 1819 at Lelant. Wife was Amy Blee. FamSearch comes to the rescue and names the wife as Ann. There is a Peninah born to Ann Blee, no father named, and bpt 26 Jan 1817. This is most likely our girl. And just for completeness it would be nice to put the pesky Peninah Blee out of the picture. Well a burial on 26 Sep 1797 of "Jenninah" aged 11 should just about do the trick.
So, in my battle against the mob have I overlooked anything and is there any reason why I shouldn't ignore the noise and go with Ann Blee as the likely wife and mother?
As usual, any comments would be appreciated.
Spike
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 22, 2014 6:15:25 GMT -5
Well Spike - your latest has started me off on another search to find some more information to 1. backup your findings and 2. answer a couple of questions of my own. First thing I needed for myself was to check some of the information I added to the database 14 years ago and then I needed to find some answers to something your own information raised about those database entries. And I think I now have the answers. Although it might be possible I doubt James Williams was the father of Peninah and unless we can find a Bastardy record his identity might remain unknown. And although he was noted as a 'bachelor' when he married Ann Blee I think you will find that this was a second marriage for James Williams! My conclusion here is largely based on the marriage of James Williams to Elizabeth Whinnen at St Erth 10th March 1838 at which time this James named his father as 'James Williams, blacksmith'! The younger James was born at Lelant about 1810 and we know that James and Ann (nee Blee) Williams were at Lelant until sometime during the 1830s after which they moved to St Erth. The scenario as I see it is as follows:- James Williams married Grace Allen at Lelant 19th August 1809 - James bp. 14th January 1810 Lelant - William Allen bp. 4th October 1812 Lelant - Grace bp. 17th April 1814 Lelant (father a labourer) In 1818 both James' wife Grace and his daughter Grace were buried at Lelant:- Grace Williams age 4 buried 16th March 1818 Grace Williams age 31 buried 9th June 1818 James then marries Ann Blee at Lelant 20th February 1819 and has the following children:- - Grace bp. 2nd March 1820 Lelant (father a labourer) <====== - Edward Blee bp. 8th June 1823 Breage (father a blacksmith of Lelant) - Joseph bp. 26th October 1827 Lelant (father a boiler maker) - Thomas bp. 26th August 1831 Lelant (father a blacksmith) - George bp. 2nd November 1835 Lelant (father a labourer) I am not quite certain about George as he does not appear in the 1841 Census and I cannot find a burial for him. The fact James is recorded as a 'bachelor' when he married Ann casts some possible doubt but I do think the scenario is good. (I have seen some registers where the words 'bachelor' and 'spinster' are contually used even though the bride or groom are widowed.) On the Blee side - there seem to have been five children born to Thomas and Ann Blee with three baptized at Breage (Thomas, Stephen and Penina) and two at Sithney (Edward and Ann). Thomas Blee, tinner, and Ann Walters were married at Breage by Banns 16th April 1781. CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Sept 27, 2014 19:43:58 GMT -5
Many thanks for your research and input, CT. Have been under a heavy cloud of hayfever for a week , and the brain has been in safe mode and unwilling to make any attempt at a coherent reply until now. Meanwhile, I have been looking at the two families of James tracing them across and down with interesting results.
I agree with all your findings, and thanks for adding the extra Blee child. When I posted I had a feeling I'd left one out. I guess I'm going to have to accept an Unknown as the father for Peninnah Blee. I had assumed that because James Williams was indicated as such on the wedding certificate that he was our man. "Father" most likely included step father (and even grandfather) and she would have named James unless she knew and accepted who the actual father was. There is also the point that when Peninnah was born, James was a married man with a young family. So it's disappointing that one of the lines appears to end for now. Peninnah's father is one of my 4xggrandparents. Still I have 30 of my 32 3xg's, so I shouldn't complain. I had Elizabeth Whinnen attached to a James Williams in my data base but I hadn't traced him further. So thanks for the link to James Sr.
Ann Blee died in 1884 (b 6 June) aged 93. Following her through on the census records she and James are shown separately in C51 when she is working for Jno Punnett, the local Vicar. James is at home with son Thomas and is now listed as blind. I have him dying in May that year. In the next three censuses Ann is shown as living with three different sons.
Interestingly, Thomas marries Mary Oaty Stevens in 1855. Previously in this thread Zibetha mentions two daughters of James Stevens marrying sons of Richard Whinnen and Peninnah. Well, Mary is James' niece.
That's as far as I've got for now. I have two loose ends which I will raise later.
Oh and shouldn't lose sight of the point of all this.
The parents of Thomas should be Stephen Blee and Margery Rosewarden and the parents of Stephen should be Stephen Blee b1710 and Margaret. At that point I hope to link an Edward Blee b 1716 into that line.
Spike
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 28, 2014 2:08:37 GMT -5
It is good to see some hard work paying off Spike. But don't let 'assumptions' blind your progress! Just because you 'expect' this to be the case it does not necessarily follow that it will be. As you try to find true parents for Thomas treat the situation as if you have no idea and keep any preconceived ideas out of it. It may well be that you are right but it is always best to consider all evidence and all possibilities before arriving at a conclusion. CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Sept 29, 2014 6:24:26 GMT -5
Ah, good old assumptions. And here was I up until a fortnight ago assuming that Peninnah Blee and Peninnah Blee were mother and daughter! And yes plenty of work to be done before I'm happy to write up the next three Blee generations. That brings me to my two loose ends. First, the mob were baying for a bpt in 1776 for James Williams. His parents would have been Richard and Mary (Thomas). However, following through census and burial records the date seemed closer to 1786 and there is a bpt at Lelant for a James Williams, parents Henry and Mary (Noall). CT, did you get any feel for the date/parents during your research? James is living in Lelant for both weddings. Also at C51, although then it is stated born in St Erth as it does on the burial record. Also on the second marriage certificate one of the witnesses is Thomas Williams. When I search for sons of Richard and sons of Henry (likely sources of witnesses) only Henry has a Thomas as a son and brother to James, and with a two year age gap. Is there anything else that can be checked? As for my second loose end. Joseph, son of James and Ann married firstly Sarah Birch in 1850 and upon her demise (June 1888) married Nanny Ford Laity Jilbert (bpt St Hilary, 14 Jan 1849). On 5 Sep 1889 they had a son, Frederick William Alexander Williams. Joseph was 62. I have been looking for the marriage. Couldn't find it on OPC but seems it's on FreeBMD at Penzance, Dec 88 quarter. You can all stop looking, thanks
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 29, 2014 16:05:44 GMT -5
Not quite correct! I think you will find on the burial record that the abode was St Erth meaning that James was a resident of St Erth when he died. A burial record will not state where a person was born. On the evidence to hand I would be inclined to think James was the son of Henry and Mary of Lelant. James son of Richard and Mary of St Erth married someone named Elizabeth before 1803 - probably Elizabeth Grigg at Crowan in 1802. The second marriage for Joseph in 1888 probably took place in the Registry Office. It may have been in one of the Non-conformist Chapels but I suspect the Registry Office is the more likely. CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Dec 12, 2014 23:46:17 GMT -5
I have a question a couple of generations of Whinnens back, but I will fill in the blanks for the record before I get there.
Richard Whinnen (as Whinnan) was bpt 10 April 1814, St Erth. His record was available via FamSearch (as Richd) but not OPC. There was a Michl and on checking the original it was easy to see it could have been either/or. I contacted the OPC and asked them to review the record and they have changed it to Richd. He was the husband of Peninah Blee.
Richard's father was John Whinnen. He was bpt 18-Jan 1778 as John Winnan at St Erth Father Forename Edward Mother Forename Mary (Source OPC) Richard's mother was Mary Blight She was bpt 23 November 1777 at St Erth. Father Forename William Mother Forename Jennifer (Source OPC) Note: Jennifer Cornish
John Winnan and Mary Blight were married 24-Nov 1798 at St Erth (Source OPC/Phillimore)
They are my gggg grandparents.
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Post by spikeharwood on Dec 13, 2014 0:22:28 GMT -5
John's father was Edward Whinnen. He was bpt 08-Jun 1742 as Edward Winnan at Breage Father Forename Edward Mother Forename Margaret (Source OPC)
John's mother was Mary Mitchel She was bpt 12-Jan1745 at St Hilary Father Forename Francis Mother Forename Elizabeth (Source OPC) Note: Elizabeth Priddis
Edward Winnan and Mary Mitchel were married 10-Nov 1770 at St Hilary Source OPC/Phillimore) They were my ggggg grandparents Edward Whinnen, John, Richard, John, John, Frederick Nicholas.
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Post by spikeharwood on Dec 13, 2014 7:35:09 GMT -5
Edward's father was Edward Whinnen. He is believed to have been born about 1715 at Breage
Edward's mother was Margaret Rosewarn/Rosewarden/Rosewaren Her actual date of birth is recorded as 30 November 1714 at Breage (no bpt date given) Father Forename John Mother Forename Ann (Source OPC)
Edward Winnan and Margaret Rosewarden were married 7 Aug 1738 at Breage (Source FamSearch )
The problem I have is proving the parentage of Edward Winnan (and his sister, Ursula). The most likely candidates are Edward Wenan bpt 14 April 1678 at Breage and Tirza/Tertia Harry/Harries bpt 4 Jan 1673 at St Keverne. They were married 22 November 1703 at St Keverne. The groom's residence is recorded as Breage. They had the following children (all bpt Breage) Sessilia 22 June 1705 (Winnan) Catherine 14 Apr 1707 (Winan) John 15 May 1709 (Winaneen) Sessilia 25 April 1712 (Winan)
Most "researchers" tack Edward and Ursula onto the end of this list, both as bpt 1715. I have looked through the images for the period up to 1718. There is no official note that any of the years have been lost for Breage but there seem to be very few entries for 1715, some 10 to 20 depending on which source. Other years seem to have around 50 plus. So that is my problem. Am I missing something? Is there a Plan B out there? (probably eliminating all other possible families)
Thanks
Spike
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Dec 13, 2014 14:01:15 GMT -5
Spike - I have not had a look as yet but after reading your latest post I would suggest the most logical place to look for would be St Keverne given that is where Terza Harry is supposed to have been baptized and also where the marriage took place. If nothing can be found at St Keverne then it would be worth checking some of the nearby Parishes.
CT
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Post by zibetha on Dec 13, 2014 17:41:48 GMT -5
Spike, I think naming patterns work in your favor as to Edward having been the son of Thirza. Looking at OPC baptism entries (with backup on Family Search) I've found children born to Edward Winnan/Whinnen and Margaret Rosewarden: Margaret 1739 Edward 1742 John 1745 TIRESIA 1747 TIRESIA 1751 Catherine 1757 I see the second son named after the mother's father, and the second daughter after her father's mother? Which would indicate that Tiresia = Thirza? was Edward's mother. No Ann, but there is a Margaret, and Catherine would be named after her father's sister, if you accept Edward as having been the son of Edward and Thirza. I find myself challenged by gaps in records in Breage and Crowan. Zib
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Post by spikeharwood on Dec 13, 2014 19:06:14 GMT -5
CT and Zib, thank you both for your comments.
CT, I have a downloaded spreadsheet for St Keverne (prepared by a previous OPC I think). They do not appear on that. I also have my own spreadsheet of Whinnen bmd's of several spellings and sources and Edward and Ursula are not there. I will have another look at FamS now that I understand the batch numbers a little better.
Zib, thanks for the reassurance re naming patterns. I think that was going to be the fall back argument if all else failed. Of added interest - and importance - to your point is that Catherine may well have been named after Edward's paternal grandmother, Catern Clise.
So perhaps it is just about the gaps in the records. As I said there arent as many baptisms for 1715 as there are for other years. There may have even been other children of theirs. But at least with the two in question there is evidence that they existed. Ursula married James Old and Edward, well....
Spike
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