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Post by spikeharwood on Aug 21, 2014 0:21:06 GMT -5
I have a problem with one or more Johns Whinnen born in 1842 in and around St Erth.
To begin with I have attempted to account for the several recorded births and deaths in the 1840's. #1 b 1837 - I have an Apr 1837 John W birth at Phillack to John&Jane Winnin. He appears in C51. #2 b 1842 - John is born 13 April, 1842 and bpt 24 April at St Erth to Francis and Elizabeth. The image shows their residence as Ludgvan. #3 b 1842 - A second 1842 birth occurs on 2 Jul with the bpt exactly twelve months later. The bpt image shows that the parents were James and Elizabeth Whinnen of St Erth. It should be noted that their previous child, Elizabeth Jane, was born on 11 Nov 1841...well less than nine months earlier. #4 b 1843 - I have an 1843 birth at "Helstone" to Samuell&Barbra Winnion. He appears in C51 also. #5 d 1844 - There is a death on 29th Sep 1844, John Winnan aged 2, residence Lelant C51 for Francis W shows no Elizabeth or John. Just Francis and the two surviving boys that I have verified the bpts for. The census details show civil parish as Ludgvan, RD as Penzance and subD as Uny Lelant. . Elizabeth died the month after John. Curiously, her residence is stated as Ludgvan. ( I'm not across the significance, if any, of all these place names.) C51 for James&Elizabeth shows no John either! #6 b 1845 - Another John (Winnan)is born AMJ 1845 at Penzance. #7 d 1846 - I have an infant death at Penzance 6 Sep 1846. John Winnan aged 15 months. I'm going with #6 & #7 cancelling each other out. #8 d 1849 - 16 May, John aged 54 #9 d 1851 - 22 Aug, John aged 47
So 2b and 3b less 5d should give us one JW surviving to C51 for either Francis or James&Elizabeth, but he's not showing up.
But there's more. In C51 Richard Whinnen and Penninah (var include Benninah ...and Blanche?) have a son John aged 9! Richard and James are brothers and live practically next door to each other. This JW's dob is consistent through various life events including C61, marriage, immigration and death. In fact each of these events has a specific date which if correct narrows the dob down to 7th Apr to 16th Aug. There is no obvious bpt for this JW.
So what has happened here? Are Richard's JW and James's JW the same person? And who are the parents? The available options seem to be - 1 The Registrar recorded the parents incorrectly (not sure how easy it is to confuse Elizabeth and Penninah). 2 James fostered JW out to Richard? 3 This is a simple case of missing burial and bpt records? 4 None of the above.
Most published trees show JW as the son of Richard and b either 2 July 1842 or just 1842. Most also show a JW b 1842 for James as well. I have correspondence dated 2003 from a researcher who has gone with "the Parish records are wrong". I do not know if she had skin in the Whinnen game or was just a paid researcher.
Comments and suggestions please.
Spike.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 21, 2014 5:00:42 GMT -5
Spike - I have had the three Johns in my database since 2000 but have not pursued them since then. But I have had another brief look at them now and arrived at what seems to me to a probable conclusion. The Census records confirm that Richard and Peninah had a son named John born around 1841 or 1842 and in the list of their baptized children there is a significant gap between Richard (1840) and Edward Blee (1845). That we can find baptisms for ALL children except John seems strange and my checks included the available Non-conformist records. All of the other six children were baptized at St Erth Church so it would be expected that John should be as well. With no son John for James and Elizabeth in 1851 and no apparent burial it seems a reasonable conclusion that there may have been an error in the register and that the parents names were incorrectly entered as James and Elizabeth instead of Richard and Peninah. We also have your point that the previous child to James and Elizabeth is recorded as having been born about seven and a half months before John. Two things concern me about this - 1. that the record for John shows July 2nd as both birthdate and baptism date and 2. that it was the Curate of Redruth her performed the baptism. In the case of point 1. there may be a possibility that the birth date is incorrect but point 2. is certainly the more concerning. Looking at only a couple of pages in the register shows that from about March 12th 1843 to October 1st there are 32 baptisms at St Erth. In all but two of these baptisms the officiating minister was the local Vicar. The exceptions are June 25th when a child was baptized by Uriah Tonkin, Vicar of Lelant and then the following entry which is that of John Whinnen on July 2nd when the officiating minister was the Curate of Redruth! I could certainly understand the error if the same man had performed all of the baptisms as often events would be recorded as they happened and then entered into the register all together perhaps once a week or once a month. AHA! Looking at the register again and I see that all entries seem to be in the same hand. Only the signiature of the officiating minister looks a little different so it looks like the local Vicar may have made an error when he filled out the register. CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Aug 22, 2014 18:16:15 GMT -5
Many thanks for your response CT.
As to the 2nd July date that concerned you, the birth occurred in 1842 on that date. The bpt was in 1843, on JW's first birthday. The parents must have had a sense of occasion.
I'm comfortable with the outcome. JW names one of his children after his mother, Peninah. Another he continues with Blee as a middle name, that being the maiden name of Peninah's mother. He seems comfortable with the outcome also. His grave is located about an hour's drive from me. I hope to get out there tomorrow to have a look. I doubt that I will find anything on his headstone to cause us any concern.
Spike
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 23, 2014 4:11:59 GMT -5
I had not pursued the family beyond the baptisms of the Johns but if Peninah and Blee appear among the names of John's children then it certainly points to him being son of Richard rather than James so I am perfectly happy that an error was made in the register. CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Aug 24, 2014 3:09:43 GMT -5
Not sure if the inscription on the top photo can be read. No mention of the actual date of birth, but nice that he acknowledges St Erth.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 24, 2014 3:46:43 GMT -5
No problem reading the inscription - all you have to do is click on the photo and it will be enlarged. (And then hit the Back Button to return) CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Aug 24, 2014 5:08:53 GMT -5
Well, that was easy. Noice, very noice.
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Post by zibetha on Aug 24, 2014 20:12:30 GMT -5
Thank you for the photo, Spike. Your query has helped me sort out part of my own tree. I have recently been working on the Ford line of my family trying to find out where people who left Cornwall went. I realized that I already had John Whinnen 1842, son of Richard and Peninah, on my tree as the husband of Elizabeth Nicholas (Ford descendant) whose parents were John Nicholas and Margaret Cock. That would fit with the naming of a daughter “Margaret Cock Whinnen.” I show Elizabeth’s father, John Nicholas, as son of John Nicholas and Martha Hodge; Martha Hodge as daughter of William Hodge and his second wife Margaret Ford; Margaret Ford as daughter of Richard Ford and Prudence Strick. See post in THREAD: Cornish Ancestors Oct 21, 2011 reply from Mary Chown for the Ford/Strick connection. Thanks to CT, she and I found out we are both descendants of William Ford and Arabella Mills. Your thread had me looking at the “newer” generations of the family from the Whinnen side rather than the Ford side. That turned out to be very helpful in sorting out Edward Blee Whinnans! As it turns out, another grandchild of Margaret Ford and William Hodge was Ann/Nanny Hodge, who married James Stevens. Two of her daughters also married sons of Richard and Peninah Whinnen: Elizabeth Stevens 1838 married Richard Whinnen, and her older sister Ann/Nanny Stevens 1834 married Edward Blee Whinnen. Adding to my confusion, the two couples both named sons “Edward Blee Whinnen” in 1886: one born in Cornwall, the other in Michigan! Ann/Nanny’s first husband was Matthew Berryman, son of John. I have not found the death of Matthew Berryman nor the marriage of Ann/Nanny and Edward to know where either event occurred. What I did find here in the US was Ann/Nanny, her two Berryman daughters Jane and Mary Ann, as well as Edward Blee Whinnen and their two sons who were born in Upper Michigan. The family then seems to have moved first to Nevada and then to Arizona with the exception of Mary Ann Berryman, who married and lived out her life in Montana. Please let me know if any of this fits with what you have found. Also, does anyone have information about a death record for Matthew Berryman or the marriage record for Ann/Nanny and EBW? Thanks, Zibetha P.S. I do have more information as to records, dates, locations, etc. re: the people mentioned in my post. I didn't want to make it too lengthy for those who are not interested in this family group
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 24, 2014 20:48:36 GMT -5
Zib - I am interested in the Berryman/Berriman side of this so would appreciate the details you have for Matthew and his offspring - including Nanny's family with Edward Blee Whinnen. Matthew Berryman was from Towednack so apart from the actually Berryman name that I have worked on in the past I am also interested in the Parish connection.
CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Aug 25, 2014 8:27:29 GMT -5
Of my mother's four grandparents, the Whinnens have a tree of their own, the other three are combined. However, I have spent the least amount of time on it as something else always seems to bob up.
So far, so good. I have the line going back to Richard Ford (also Foard?) but didn't have a wife for him. I have parents for William Hodge as Reuben Hodge and Martha Hitchens. Reuben's parents as Johnson Hodge (what's the chances his father is John?) and Ann George. I've probably just noted this lot and they need further investigation.
John Whinnen and Elizabeth had twelve children, ten of whom survived to adulthood.
Apologies for not answering sooner but I had to leave for a dinner function not long after I saw your post. Will have a look at the Edward Blees and check my info and the other issues you mention tomorrow.
Spike
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Post by spikeharwood on Aug 25, 2014 10:05:47 GMT -5
Just throwing something else into the mix before I go to bed. Before we get beyond the Hodge/Ford children and on to the grandchildren etc, it's worth noting what happens to four of their children. Robert's offspring go on to marry Richard Whinnen's sons as mentioned. Martha marries John Nicholas and one of their daughters marries Richard's brother's son.(the JW on the headstone pic) Ann marries Richard Nicholas, brother of John. James marries Elizabeth Whinnen. Not sure who she is yet but most likely dau of John W and Margaret Rodda, with John W being the son of John W and Ann Thomas.
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Post by zibetha on Aug 25, 2014 21:43:31 GMT -5
CT, Here’s what I’ve got for starters:
OPC: Underage “Nanny” Stevens, daughter of James, married Matthew Berryman of age, resident St Erth, son of John, on Feb 12 1852 13, 1853 at St. Erth. AT 1861 Census, she was married (husband not present) and living with her daughters c/o her parents and working at the mine. From Marriage 1: Daughter Jane BERRYMAN, (OPC) born Mar 20 1853 at St Erth baptized Mar 25 1854, death Sep 8 1937 in Phoenix, Arizona USA. Found in Missouri on one Census possibly due to husband’s job with railroad? Jane married James Henry CHYNOWETH and had children (birth dates est. from census): Emma Jane 1870, John H 1872, Gertrude M 1879, Oscar James 1881 and Kathryn aka Katie 1885 Daughter Mary Ann BERRYMAN born (OPC) Aug 28 1854 baptized Nov 5 1854 St Erth death Nov 9 1923 Butte, Montana Married James RICHARDS (1845-1894) Feb 2, 1874 in Pioche, Lincoln, Nevada per County Marriage book as indexed on Ancestry.com Children: Bessie 1875, Philip Henry 1877, Edward E 1879, James 1881, Annie 1887, Emma 1891, Henry 1893 From Marriage No. 2 sometime between 1854 and 1866 (Cornwall or Michigan?) to Edward Blee Whinnen 2 sons born in Michigan: EDWARD BLEE WHINNEN born 1866 in died in Phoenix, Arizona 1926 per headstone on Find-a-Grave (Memorial gives father as EBW and mother as Ann Stevens transcribed from death certificate.) At Pioche Nebraska 1880, Fools Gulch, Arizona Territory 1900, Black Rock Mining District, Arizona 1910. 1910 census has him working as a “hired man” in Phoenix. No known marriage or children. RICHARD WHINNEN born 1871 Michigan found age 5 in Lincoln County, Nevada age 5 as R Whinnen c/o E Whinnen and then with family on 1880 census in Pioche, Lincoln county, Nevada. No further info on him as yet.
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Post by zibetha on Aug 25, 2014 22:22:36 GMT -5
Death certificates for Edward B Whinnen Jr and his half-sister, Jane Berryman Chynoweth, are old enough that they are public record and can be viewed online at genealogy.az.gov, the Arizona Department of Health Services' website.
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Post by spikeharwood on Aug 25, 2014 23:55:50 GMT -5
"OPC: Underage “Nanny” Stevens, daughter of James, married Matthew Berryman of age, resident St Erth, son of John, on Feb 12 1852 at St. Erth."
Did you mean Feb 13 1853 or am I looking at something different?
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Post by zibetha on Aug 26, 2014 0:16:08 GMT -5
I do -- too much computer time at work and I need to get new glasses! Sorry!
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