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Post by sue on Aug 8, 2014 14:37:44 GMT -5
Spike, having now fed myself it has just occurred to me that we may have wandered away from your William Curnow query, which was: which William Curnow m Mary Ann Lennell Daly, S Aus 1879? William Curnow naming his father as Thomas Curnow; marriage taking place at the house of William Curnow. As I have said above, it has been determined by previous work that one of the families on the Q Bee 1865 was Thomas Curnow 1827 Ludgvan + wife Elizabeth James & children William c1857 and Thomas James 1863. Thomas 1827 re-married to Emma Rowe Moonta S Aus in 1868, & had many more children. I have not as yet identified a future for all his children - actually scrub that, I have identified a future for all of his children except William c1857 who came over from England with him on the Q Bee, & his 2nd attempt at a son Thomas James, 1869 Daly (Although Thomas James Curnow could marry 1899, but this isn't necessarily him.) What we do know from previous research is that various of Thomas Curnow's siblings also hot-footed it to S Aus - including brother William Curnow 1838 Towednack, who also moved on to a 2nd wife in Aus: Jane Noye, & had a dozen children in Daly/Nairn. Now, is this a good fit for a William Curnow, father Thomas, marrying at the house of William Curnow in East Moonta/Daly in 1879 to a 17 year old bride? I think perhaps so, & we got side-tracked onto info re the Curnows of Paul in Cornwall. Do your Aus records have any children for William Curnow~Mary Ann Lennell with boring old family names - as siblings to the wonderful Laventine - that could link in to the family of Thomas Curnow 1827 Ludgvan? James as a middle name, for example, might indicate mother Elizabeth James, not the Curnow line from Paul where the mother was Alice Payne James....... Hmm, from the index that I can access, I think I can see a son William 1880, Ella Elizabeth 1884, Frederick Cecil 1887, Clarence 1893 - and bingo, Thomas James 1882! Let's see what CT thinks. Sue
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Post by spikeharwood on Aug 8, 2014 18:19:43 GMT -5
...and just to complete the set, the equally exotically named Garnett Garfield b 1896
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Post by spikeharwood on Aug 9, 2014 5:21:35 GMT -5
I have not as yet identified a future for all his children - actually scrub that, I have identified a future for all of his children except William c1857 who came over from England with him on the Q Bee, & his 2nd attempt at a son Thomas James, 1869 Daly (Although Thomas James Curnow could marry 1899, but this isn't necessarily him.) I think it is him. Marries Edith "Eldrida" Guy in 1899. Dies in 1917, buried at Moonta aged 47. Headstone inscription transcribed as Husband of Edith.
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Post by sue on Aug 9, 2014 8:10:00 GMT -5
Ah-ha! A matching pair on a headstone always comes in jolly useful! I had Thomas James Curnow 1869 as being buried 1917 age 47 Moonta from the Genealogy SA Index, but without full details I am loath to ascribe "likely" marriages in case I have veered off the correct path! I do think it is very likely that Laventine, Garnett et al have William Curnow c1857 of Thomas Curnow 1827 Ludgvan & Elizabeth James as their antecedents. So that would mean as Thomas 1827 was gson of William Curnow 1779 Towednack & Elizabeth Bolitho, and William Curnow~Elizabeth Bolitho are my, let me see, GGGGparents, we are vaguely related Spike! Sue
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Post by sue on Aug 9, 2014 8:25:44 GMT -5
As to William Curnow of Thomas & Alice in Paul, he's at home 1871 in Paul, a pupil teacher. Then let's jump to 1911: I think you will find him as a headmaster of Grove Vale school in Dulwich South London, living in Peckham with wife Rosina & children Thomas & Richard; and 1881 a single lodger schoolmaster in South London in 1881 - so that takes care of him! Sue
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Post by spikeharwood on Aug 9, 2014 9:17:34 GMT -5
Ah-ha! A matching pair on a headstone always comes in jolly useful! I had Thomas James Curnow 1869 as being buried 1917 age 47 Moonta from the Genealogy SA Index, but without full details I am loath to ascribe "likely" marriages in case I have veered off the correct path! Ideally, I would have liked to have found her in the same plot. He obviously had similar expectations given that he was buried deeper than usual. But she lived until 1956 and is buried in Melbourne. Related we may well be, but certainly not courtesy of a Curnow. My ggg aunt married a John Bray b Bodmin 1841. His brother Charles's dau married a James Angove. James Angove's sister, Naomi m Laventine. I did mention him being an outrider. Still the good news (for Laventine anyway) is that he is safe from the Curnow cull....unlike poor Blanch.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 9, 2014 9:28:22 GMT -5
I have been beavering away getting the Paul Curnows sorted out and at the moment I have just about completed all events to the end of 1812. I will work more on them tomorrow and hopefully bridge the gap to the events we have been discussing.
Hopefully I will get a chance tomorrow to read through all the recent posts properly and after that I will offer my opinions on the information from SA.
CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Sept 3, 2014 19:04:57 GMT -5
As of Tuesday there has been a major upgrade of the database for GenSA. Provides much more info than previously (although this is only available to "members"). There is now a father named for bride and groom, a relative on deaths, dates are more than years and places are more than districts. Marital status comes in handy too.
For example, info for Thomas Curnow mentioned above (which confirms we picked the right one)
MARRIAGE Groom Given Name(s): William Groom Last Name: CURNOW Bride Given Name(s): Mary Ann Bride Last Name: LENNEN Marriage Date: 1879, July 12 Marriage Place: Res of William Curnow East Moonta Groom Age: 23 Groom Approx. Birth Year: 1856 Groom Marital Status: S Groom Father: Thomas CURNOW Bride Age: 18 Bride Approx. Birth Year: 1861 Bride Marital Status: S Bride Father Name: Edward LENNEN District: Daly Symbol: Book/Page: 120/202
DEATH Given Name(s): Thomas James Last Name: CURNOW Death Date: 1917, April 23 Gender: M Age: 47y Approx. Birth Year: 1870 Marital Status: M Relative 1: Relative 2: Residence: Moonta Death Place: Moonta District: Daly Symbol: Book/Page: 409/365
CEMETERIES/MEMORIAL INSCRIPTIONS Given Name(s): Thomas James Surname: CURNOW Death Date: 1917, April 23 Age: 47y Relations: Husband of Edith Cemetery: Moonta Notes:
I can see a lot of late nights coming up.
Spike
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 17, 2015 7:11:27 GMT -5
Richard Rowe Curnow is providing generous amounts of fuel for cranial pain at the moment but I can at least add something for further thought. Richard did indeed marry Sarah Jackling at Norwood, SA in 1877 and he had one daughter as has been noted. Wife Sarah died at Strathalbyn 1st December 1880 at the age of 24. From this point on trying to find valid information about Richard has become extremely painful. There are three births registered in NSW to Richard R Curnow and wife Elizabeth:- 1894 William T Curnow at Wellington 1896 Alice F Curnow at Peak Hill 1900 Henry Curnow at Rockley And then if you search out Military records we find another son - John Herbert Curnow - who is supposed to have been born about 1893 at Rockhampton, Qld. Ancestry Public Trees have the mother of the first three children as Lizzie LUNT ..... BUT they are all WRONG!!!! Richard R Curnow married Elizabeth Lunt at Parramatta in 1934 which is just a mere 40 years after William was born!!!! One of the trees I looked at shows that the marriage took place at All Saints Church of England, Parramatta North, 21st June 1934. I have found nothing to suggest there is a different Richard R Curnow involved but the marriage was short-lived and Richard died apparently within months. Lizzie died 10 years later in 1944. Now, once again turning to the Military records and we find that John Herbert Curnow has two different people recorded as next of kin in the various documents. On one page of his Attestation Papers we find the following names:- 1. Miss A F Curnow (sister) 106 Little Simmons St Enmore 2. Mrs A Griffin (mother) 106 Little Simmons St Enmore I spent a lot of time searching Electoral Rolls and other records and eventually found that in 1906 at the above address was one Arthur Griffin. John Curnow's Military records and then correspondence between his mother and the Army show that his mother Elizabeth was at this address until at least 1932. Unfortunately the NSW Electoral Rolls on Ancestry don't begin until 1930 but it appears Arthur Griffin must have died prior to then. I have not been able to find a marriage for Richard Rowe Curnow to Elizabeth and nor have I yet found a marriage for Arthur Griffin and Elizabeth so at this stage I don't have a maiden name for Elizabeth. I have also not been able to find a record of birth for John Herbert Curnow which is providing further frustrations. After five years Elizabeth Griffin was still waiting for the Army to release to her the deferred payments owed to her deceased son John Herbert Curnow and in a letter dated 4th September 1920 she wrote this:- "Having received a letter from the Military concerning the next of kin of my son J H Curnow Private 1179 13 Battalion Their is me his mother Sister & Brother and his father who we have not heard of for years." The sister was Alice Florence Curnow and the brother would have been Henry who was born in 1900. William Thomas Curnow, the only other brother, was also killed during WWI. So did Richard Rowe Curnow marry Elizabeth or where her children all illegitimate? If there was a marriage then the big question is 'where and when' and that also applies to the birth of son John Herbert Curnow about 1893. If anyone can add anything that might help find some of the answers it would make me somewhat happier and less frustrated than I am right now! CT
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Post by sue on Apr 17, 2015 14:23:07 GMT -5
I looked at John Herbert Curnow's WW1 record last year, & noted mother Mrs A Griffin...
Brother William Thomas Curnow's WW1 record includes a will leaving his possessions to his NoK father R R Curnow, who duly is in communication with the officials from a new address c/o a lady (guess lodging house keeper) in Orange NSW, from where he signs for his son's effects.
The only reference to a mother might be on page 5 of W T Curnow's record, his enlistment, where I think there may be an annotation "Mother Mrs E Curnow", between points 13 & 14 - but I may be deciphering that wrongly.
This tends to indicate to me that Richard Rowe Curnow + Elizabeth X were married, somewhere sometime.
And William naming (in Oct 1916 enlistment) his father as NoK, son & father both as Curnows, perhaps indicates similarly..... (i.e. legitimacy).
Not much help, really.....
Unless access to the online A...au tree showing a photo "Photo: Flo and Oliver Griffin. Category: Portrait. Attached To: Florence Annie Curnow (1892-1965) ... Attached To: Alice Florence Curnow (1896-1967)" somehow explains the Curnow/Griffin marriages.... but probably a red herring & not the daughter of Richard Rowe Curnow....
Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 17, 2015 16:18:11 GMT -5
No connection and, once again, it sounds like someone is copying the work of others (i.e. the photograph) and using it even though the names are all wrong1!! Florence Annie Curnow was born at Port Melbourne in 1891 to James Thomas Curnow and Jane Ann Bryant and she married Oliver Henry Griffin in Victoria in 1922. So the Griffin/Curnow thing is purely coincidental. Re the two boys killed during the War - the AIF Project shows information from a few military sources for William Thomas Curnow. As you have said Richard Rowe Curnow is named as next of kin in the enlistment records but then in 'Miscellaneous information from Cemetery records' the parents are listed as "R.R. and Elizabeth Curnow, Windsor, New South Wales". So yes, everything 'seems' to indicate that Richard Rowe Curnow and Elizabeth were married ....................... except for the fact that the marriage record cannot be found! A birth certificate for one of the children would probably give us the maiden name of Elizabeth and possibly also some marriage details. But I think we need to rely on the hope that someone reading this might happen to have one and share it with us. CT
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Post by gandolf on Apr 17, 2015 18:39:41 GMT -5
CT, Firstly, I am not willing to bet the house on the Lizzie Curnow who dies in 1944 as being the wife of Richard Rowe Curnow (although it is certainly not impossible chronologically). The Lizzie who was died in 1944 was buried at Sydney's Eastern Suburbs Memorial Park. The problem is there are two others in the grave with her, neither of whom have been in the discussion to date: Name Funeral Date Location Age Gary Raymond Curnow 18/11/2002 A5 - Anglican FM 5 - 498 45 Kevin Raymond Curnow 13/11/1973 A5 - Anglican FM 5 - 498 42 Lizzie Curnow 08/03/1944 A5 - Anglican FM 5 - 498 70 Kevin is perhaps a grandson? of Lizzie (and perhaps Richard Rowe Curnow ??), while Gary may be a son of Kevin. However, I can't identify anyone I can say with any confidence is Lizzie Curnow on the NSW Electoral Rolls. ---- CT, A few thoughts to throw into the mix. Don't assume that because the marriage of Richard Rowe Curnow and Elizabeth Lunt occurred in 1934, Elizabeth Lunt could not therefore be the mother of the earlier children. There may well be a reason why the marriage occurred decades after the couple began living as husband and wife, as I learnt from my own family. One of my sets of 3xgreat-grandparents were John Broadhurst and Sarah Evans. Both were English born convicts transported to Tasmania in the 1840's who married in 1849 and were both received their conditional pardons in 1852. They had two daughters (Martha - my ancestor - and Sarah) in Tasmania before moving to Victoria in the mid 1850's during the gold rush. While I was able to track both daughters through marriage and children to death, I was unable to find any information whatsoever on the two parents. Both John and Sarah seemed to disappear completely. At the time I did find a John William Percival Broadhurst buried in NSW in 1869, but had no reason to assume any connection as he had a different wife buried with him. It was only many years later when I made contact with a descendant of the NSW family that it all finally fell into place. The John Broadhurst who was buried in NSW was the same one transported to Tasmania and married to Sarah Evans. Turned out that John William Percival Broadhurst had married in England in 1841 to one Margaret Bate and had two children (one died in infancy) before his conviction and transportation. In Tasmania he did as many others did and remarried to Sarah Evans in 1849 under the common practice at the time of "separation by sea for seven years" effectively being the same as a divorce. After the family moved to Victoria it seems that perhaps John and Sarah separated, but in any event it appears that either John or someone he knew made contact with his first wife Margaret back in England. She came out to Australia with her surviving son (oral history says with her "marriage certificate sewn into the hem of her skirt"), and somehow managed to find John Broadhurst on the Victorian goldfields. The reunited couple moved to NSW by 1859 and went on to have another three children. Sarah (nee Evans) Broadhurst meanwhile is still calling herself Mrs Broadhurst (as the mother of the bride) at the time of her two daughter's marriages in the early 1870's. Yet I could not marry her off nor bury her anywhere in Australia in the next 50 years. It was only when I was looking in detail at the names of her grandchildren that a clue emerged in the middle name of one of them "Robert Bath McKay", son of Martha (nee Broadhurst) McKay. Bath was not a known family name on either the Evans, Mckay or Broadhurst family lines. Having a Eureka moment one day I went searching for the death of a Sarah Bath and there it was, right age, correct former golddfields area (Stawell, Vic), etc. On further checking it turned out that Sarah (nee Evans) must have formed a relationship with one William Bath no later the later part of 1870's. Despite calling herself Mrs Broadhurst on her daughter's marriage certificates, the relationship may even have begun as early as the 1850's with the Broadhurst girls perhaps thinking of him as a surrogate father. That Martha named a son Robert Bath Mckay in 1881 is suggestive of the latter possibility. However (possibly because William Bath had a living wife), William Bath and Sarah (nee Evans) Broadhurst did not marry until 1906, at least 30 years and possibly as high as fifty years after they formed their relationship. I know nothing about William's first wife, other than on the 1906 marriage certificate he described himself as a widower whose wife had died in 1904. To further complicate the matter Sarah had reverted to her maiden surname on the marriage record. The marriage was likely to formalise the relationship due to ill health, as William Bath died just four weeks after the marriage (aged 72). Sarah died (as Sarah Bath) in 1910 aged 80. I can see a number of potential similarities between the marriage of William & Sarah and the marriage of Richard Rowe Curnow and his death within months.
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Post by gandolf on Apr 17, 2015 20:02:39 GMT -5
OK, to perhaps further confuse the issue, I was looking at the online trees (presumably the same ones as CT?). These trees all suggest that Lizzie Lunt originated from Warwickshire. This would seem to be confirmed by the following arrival: Name Birth Year Port of Arrival Arrival Date Ship Name William Lunt abt 1849 Maryborough 3 Aug 1886 Scottish Hero Emma Lunt abt 1850 Maryborough 3 Aug 1886 Scottish Hero Lizzie Lunt abt 1874 Maryborough 3 Aug 1886 Scottish Hero Flo Lunt abt 1878 Maryborough 3 Aug 1886 Scottish Hero Annie Lunt abt 1881 Maryborough 3 Aug 1886 Scottish Hero William Lunt abt 1884 Maryborough 3 Aug 1886 Scottish Hero
The approximate date of birth would seem to fit with the death/burial in 1944 as Lizzie Curnow and lend support to the marriage in 1934.
However bearing in mind that Lunt is a relatively rare name in Australia (less than 30 recorded events involving a Lunt in Qld up till 1914), the Queensland BDMs have the following:
Elizabeth Lunt married 11 Nov 1889 to James Davison. George Davison born 22 Dec 1889 to parents: James Davison and Elizabeth (Lunt) Davison
At first glance the bride for the marriage in 1889 appears rather young if she is tje Lizzie born in England 1874 (she would be only around fifteen), but taken into account with the fact that she was apparently around 8 months pregnant at the time it starts to make sense.
No further sign of the family after that in Qld anyway. The only possibility is the marriage of a James Davison (again a rare name in Qld) in 1891 to a Mary Kennedy. May or may not be relevant?
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Post by gandolf on Apr 17, 2015 20:43:30 GMT -5
I spent a lot of time searching Electoral Rolls and other records and eventually found that in 1906 at the above address was one Arthur Griffin. John Curnow's Military records and then correspondence between his mother and the Army show that his mother Elizabeth was at this address until at least 1932. Unfortunately the NSW Electoral Rolls on Ancestry don't begin until 1930 but it appears Arthur Griffin must have died prior to then. Sands Directories show that Arthur Griffin was still at 106 Simmonds Street, Enmore in 1925 but he seems to have vanished two years later. Yet no record of his death in NSW prior to 1945 (or at least none that can be attributed to him). Mrs Elizabeth Griffin shows as at 106 Simmonds Street, Enmore in 1928 Sands Directory (implying Arthur deceased by then).
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 18, 2015 5:03:47 GMT -5
That thought did actually occur to me a few hours after my post. However I think it can be discounted quite quickly. John Herbert Curnow has it clearly documented in his Military records that his mother was, at the time, Mrs A Griffin and his sister Miss A F Curnow. We also have documentary evidence from the same sources that Elizabeth Griffin had at least five years of correspondence with the Army about her two deceased sons. She clearly names John Herbert Curnow as her son and mentions herself, her daughter and another son (Henry) as next of kin to John. In the same letters she states that she lost two sons in the War and although she does not name him in the records I have there is no doubt that second son was William Thomas Curnow who was killed in August 1918. It should also be noted that William Thomas, Alice Florence and Henry Curnow appear in the NSW Birth Indexes with Richard R Curnow and Elizabeth recorded as parents. John Herbert was supposedly born at Rockhampton but I am yet to find a record of his birth. I have also tried to find Lizzie (Elizabeth) Lunt in the NSW Electoral Rolls in the hope that I might find a clue to when she first became linked with Richard Rowe Curnow. So far that search has proved fruitless and is not helped by the fact that the NSW Rolls on Ancestry do not commence until 1930. And there is the added problem over this weekend that the NSW Registry site is down until sometime Sunday night. Identifying the two Curnows buried with Lizzie might be helpful but it may take a couple of days. I also looked at the Immigration records and found the family as you did arriving in 1886. A further child, George, was born soon after arrival and registered in 1886. CT
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