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Post by tenpoundpom on Nov 17, 2013 0:33:24 GMT -5
William Uren (the son of Richard Uren and Phillis Trewhella) married Kitty Elizabeth Trewhella in 1869. He was alive at the time of Kitty's death in Glen Innes in 1912 but I cannot find a death record for William. Did he come to Australia with Kitty? He is not mentioned on her gravestone, and it does appear that William had a child, Edith Uren Matthews (born 8 Feb 1879) with Dorcas Matthews so there may have been some bad feeling between William and Kitty.
Enlightenment as to where and when William died would be gratefully received!
Simon
edit - found a newspaper notice for a William Uren, of Torrington, applying for a publican licence in 1904 , so he did come to Australia with Kitty. Still don't know when he died though!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 17, 2013 8:31:48 GMT -5
Simon - I think it might be interesting to know what sources you have for the information here.  Baptised as 'Kitty', recorded as 'Kate' and signed her name 'kate Trewhella' when married - so just where did that second forename come from?  I can't answer that one at the moment but I think it would be wise to get a few other parts of his life sorted out before spending too much time searching for his death/burial. Seems to me that it might be very easy to end up with the wrong person! That is particularly interesting ..... especially when you consider the following:- 1881 Census Trevaylor, Gulval William Uren, head, mar., 38, farmer, Lelant Kitty do., wife, mar., 36, farmer's wife, Towednack Margret Berryman, serv., Unm., general servant, Towednack Annie J T Uren, daur., 11, scholar, Ludgvan Hilda J. Uren, daur., 10, do., Gulval Kate Uren, daur., 2, infant, GulvalKate daughter of William (farmer) and Kitty Uren of Trevaylor baptised privately 8th March 1879 Gulval To have an illegitimate daughter born 8th February 1879 and then exactly four weeks later baptise daughter Kate might be stretching a few friendships!!!  (BTW - Kate's birth was registered in the December Qtr of 1878) I will try and spend a little time on this over the next day or so and see if I can find some answers. CT |
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Post by tenpoundpom on Nov 17, 2013 16:22:23 GMT -5
Simon - I think it might be interesting to know what sources you have for the information here. Baptised as 'Kitty', recorded as 'Kate' and signed her name 'kate Trewhella' when married - so just where did that second forename come from? CT From the Ancestry.com Australian death index record of her daughter Katie Carter (died 26 June 1943) Father listed as William Uren, Mother listed as Kitty Elizabeth Trewhella That is the only place I've seen her as Kitty Elizabeth. Will flesh out the details on why I think I have the "right" William when I get back from work Regards Simon |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 17, 2013 20:45:03 GMT -5
Okay, that makes sense. Could you please also provide details of Kitty's death and the gravestone along with how and where you found them. I had a look last night but so far have not been able to find anything except for the Indexed Death Record in Ancestry.
As is often the case I was not able to access the NSW BDM online site last night so all I have at the moment is the marriage to William Uren and the baptisms of the three children from the Cornwall parish registers.
CT
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Post by tenpoundpom on Nov 18, 2013 3:00:14 GMT -5
Okay, that makes sense. Could you please also provide details of Kitty's death and the gravestone along with how and where you found them. I had a look last night but so far have not been able to find anything except for the Indexed Death Record in Ancestry. As is often the case I was not able to access the NSW BDM online site last night so all I have at the moment is the marriage to William Uren and the baptisms of the three children from the Cornwall parish registers. CT Sources etc.. William Uren and Kitty have three daughters ... Annie Jane trewhella, Hilda Mary, and Katie. AJT marries Ernest Grose in 1892 (Cornwall OPC) and moves to South Africa. She dies there in 1948 (ancestor.co.za) Hilda Mary marries Robert Thomas in 1894 (Cornwall OPC). She dies in 1962 - Rockdale, NSW Father William, Mother Kitty (NSW BMD) Katie Uren marries George Cater - 1905 - Tenterfield, NSW (Australian Marriage Index on Ancestry.com) Tenterfield is significant as that is where her uncle, John Trewhella is located. In 1938 Katie Carter sends a letter to "The Cornishman" which in response to some query about "Missing Relatives". In her reply she states that she is the Katie Uren, the youngest daughter of William Uren from Trevaylor farm. She states her address, which is in Queensland (Cracow), the name of her husband - George Carter, the name of AJT's husband and the fact that she is living in South Africa - so that is why I knew to look in the South African records for AJT Grose. Katie died in 1943, as previously mentioned. So all the "legitimate" children accounted for, it was time to try and work out what happened to William and Kitty. They are not at Trevaylor in 1901 and I could not find them elsewhere in the 1901 or 1911 census. Could not find death record for either or an easily identifiable passenger list entry. Since Kitty had a brother, and 2 children in Australia, and had previously been there (as mentioned in the funeral report of her mother Mary Richards), I had a suspicion that she might have moved there (+/- husband William) as she might have been a bit dark about the dalliance I suspect he had with Dorcas Matthews (more later!). I eventually found Kitty's burial record in Glenn Innes in 1912 (Australian Cemetries Index) which is not too far from Tenterfield. In the NSW BMD site, Kitty is recorded as "Kittey Uren". A little examination of the Trove website found a probate hearing in the Sydney Morning Herald which listed her residence as "Torrington Tenterfield" with effects to her husband William Uren. Now the notice did not say where William was living. As she died intestate he probably still had first dibs even if they were estranged and he was still living in England, or elsewhere. I could not, and still can't find a death record for William in Australia. However, on Trove, I searched the local Tenterfield rag for "Uren", and turned up a William Uren, from Torrington, giving notice that he would be applying for a publican licence. His occupation is given as a miner. The William from Tevaylor was a farmer, but Kitty's brother was a miner and could have influenced William to "retrain" as a miner, even at his age. Likely did not go to Australia until 1900 (age 59) Torrington is a little village near Tenterfield, so I'm suspecting that the potential publican and Kitty's husband are the one and the same. Now back to Edith Uren Matthews. There is a lengthy bastardy case report in "The Cornishman" in June 1879, where Dorcas Matthews, of Gulval seeks support from William Uren, a farmer, also of Gulval. The report states a date of birth for the unnamed female child of 8 Feb 1879. The unnamed female child gets a name in a baptism in October 1879 (Cornwall OPC). Is Kitty's husband the father? There are only 3 William Urens in Gulval in the 1881 census. One is a 60+ tanner, so I'm counting him out. Another is an agricultural labourer. If the evidence as reported is correct he is an unlikely culprit as the father bought Dorcas earrings, and paid for lodgings at the time of her confinement, so I'm thinking Kitty's husband William is the most likely suspect as he would have more resources that the usual Ag Lab. Edith eventually ends up in Cook County Illinois, the wife of William Symons. The death record gives her date of birth as 8 Feb 1879 and her mother as Dorcas Matthews. The father is named as James Matthews, who is her grandfather. Hopefully not! I suspect it was William Uren from Trevaylor! Simon |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 18, 2013 5:10:15 GMT -5
Whether or not the William Uren responsible for the child of Dorcas Matthews was the husband of Kitty Trewhella is yet to be determined to my satisfaction although it does appear likely that it was he. I have now found the Bastardy article and it also states that 'the' William Uren was 'a married man' but there is one thing that leaves me a little reluctant to hasten identification. You have mentioned that in 1881 there were but three William Urens at Gulval and of those three the most likely candidate was Kitty's husband. But the sticking point is that the affiliation order was recorded in June 1879 - two years earlier! Katie Uren, daughter of William and Kitty, was born in November 1878 and baptised just four weeks after Dorcas Matthews' child was born so if Kitty's husband was 'the culprit' then the situation might be expected to have been slightly more than 'a little messy'! I am going to leave this one for the moment as 'judgement reserved'. Actually, this is not quite correct. John Trewhella was at Torrington which is situated up in the hills from Emmaville. I was there in the early 1980s doing a little research on the Trewhella family and I think the population then was only about 80. In fact as of 1981 Torrington was still only a 'settlement' but apparently 'Village' status was expected to be granted in that same year.  That last information came from a small book entitled 'Old Torrington' which I purchased at the time. And in that book there is the following quote from a small section about the Tablelands Hotel:- Before 1927, known Owner/Licensees are reported to have been James Knight, Danny Meehand and Kitty Uren." Now, you have mentioned a report where William Uren was applying for a Publican's Licence in 1904. In the 1907 Sands Directory for NSW one W Uren can be found addressed as 'Hotel, Torrington'. This is all more than 20 years after the bastardy issue which suggests either William was not 'the William Uren' or that the matter was 'dealt with' and the family moved on. There is certainly anecdotal as well as recorded evidence that both William and Kitty were involved with the Torrington Hotel. What happened to William Uren, and when, is still not known but perhaps there is a hint in the fact that it was 'Kitty Uren' remembered as being an owner/licensee of the hotel. I also found the Probate article in Trove and my reading is that William Uren was probably still around. Only the Probate records themselves might help answer that one. The one other thing I can offer for now is that Annie Kate Trewhella Grose (nee Uren) died 23rd July 1948 at her home at 65 Webber Road, Germiston, East Rand, Gauteng, South Africa. The Death Notice was signed by her son Ernest Penn Grose and by her daughter Elizabeth Audrey Prior (present at death). Another son, Lionel Grose, had predeceased her and her husband, Ernest, had died 8th June 1921. CT |
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Post by tenpoundpom on Nov 18, 2013 6:22:10 GMT -5
Whether or not the William Uren responsible for the child of Dorcas Matthews was the husband of Kitty Trewhella is yet to be determined to my satisfaction although it does appear likely that it was he. I have now found the Bastardy article and it also states that 'the' William Uren was 'a married man' but there is one thing that leaves me a little reluctant to hasten identification. You have mentioned that in 1881 there were but three William Urens at Gulval and of those three the most likely candidate was Kitty's husband. But the sticking point is that the affiliation order was recorded in June 1879 - two years earlier! Katie Uren, daughter of William and Kitty, was born in November 1878 and baptised just four weeks after Dorcas Matthews' child was born so if Kitty's husband was 'the culprit' then the situation might be expected to have been slightly more than 'a little messy'! I am going to leave this one for the moment as 'judgement reserved'. CT I agree that the evidence is circumstantial. However the only way I can determine the number of "William Urens" there are in a particular parish is to check the census records. There was one William Uren in Gulval in 1871 and three in 1881. William, husband of Kitty, was certainly there in 1879 as the residence on Katie's 1879 baptism is Trevaylor, Gulval. So if Edith's father was a different William Uren he would have had to come in after the 1871 census and snuck out before the 1881 census, leaving Kitty's husband in the frame! If I am right that William was the father of Edith Uren Matthews, I suspect Kitty and William made up. After all they were still together in 1891 at Trevaylor. Very interested to read the notes from your Torrington booklet. I would think, if anything the information from the booklet, would give further weight to the notion that William the proposed publican is the husband of Kitty. Kitty may well have been the "face" at the bar, but I think in those days there would not have been too many women holding a publican licence in their own right. Would be interesting to get some further information about this. |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 18, 2013 7:59:28 GMT -5
Remember that being 'of' a Parish did not necessarily mean a person was born in that Parish and often it merely meant the abode at the time. It is possible that there was another William Uren who resided in Gulval for a period and that he either died or left. As paternity and child maintenance issues were involved it would be more likely that overseas rather than elsewhere in England would be a 'favoured retreat'. It has crossed my mind that tracking Dorcas Matthews 'might' lead to something useful but unfortunately it appears she is going to be more than a little elusive! In 1881 Dorcas, along with daughter Edith, are with her parents. In 1891 Edith is still with her grandparents but Dorcas seems to have disappeared. In 1901 Edith is a servant at Penzance and still no sign of Dorcas. I have not found any marriage or death in FreeBMD for Dorcas either. The other option might be to see if there is any further mention of her in the newspapers. If William Uren ceased to pay the maintenance for Edith then there might have been further proceedings against him which might help in identification.  CT |
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Post by sue on Nov 18, 2013 11:17:37 GMT -5
Hi Would the OPC baptisms Madron 1888 of Caroline to Dorcas Thomas Matthews single woman, & 1893 Caroline Uren  to Dorcas Matthews be relevant to the continued whereabouts of Dorcas?? I think Dorcas may have shaved nearly a decade(!) off her age by 1891 at 30 years old, when I think she is still in Madron with a daughter Cary & another child "boarder" Florence James age 3; then 1901 I can't view the census but an FMP search gives Dorcas Matthews Penzance RD age 43. Then perhaps a big leap in age to 60 by 1911 when a Dorcas Matthews is indexed as born Treen, apparently resident in the great metropolis of Plymouth........ so I guess the death 1926 Plymouth RD age 75 would be this lady, who may or may not be the Dorcas Matthews under discussion..... Sue |
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Post by tenpoundpom on Nov 19, 2013 4:46:39 GMT -5
Remember that being 'of' a Parish did not necessarily mean a person was born in that Parish and often it merely meant the abode at the time. It is possible that there was another William Uren who resided in Gulval for a period and that he either died or left. As paternity and child maintenance issues were involved it would be more likely that overseas rather than elsewhere in England would be a 'favoured retreat'. CT There is some more information I've found. There is an appeal against the Bastardy case. This is reported in the Royal Cornwall Gazette 4 July 1879. Although the appellant is recorded as Mr William Huran, it's fairly clear that its about the same matter. The extra information that is that the appellant is a Poor law Guardian in Penzance Union, as well as a farmer,and that Dorcas was the daughter of a farm labourer, working on the appellant's farm. William has sacked his brief from the first case, and replaced him with Mr Jenkins. Dorcas has retained her solicitor, Wellington Dale, and wisely so, as the appeal is rejected. William Uren (Gulval) is recorded in the newspapers as a member of the Penzance Board of Guardians from before the time of Edith's birth, up until at least 1884, so, after the 1881 census. In the 100 point identity test, this gets an extra 10 points from me! To me, it seems that there is only one William Uren who fits the description! |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 21, 2013 7:05:26 GMT -5
First thing I need to do is to apologise for my 'absence' for the last several days. It was not of my doing but rather (yet again) a problem with my Internet Service saying that I had exceeded my data allowance when in fact I had used only 75% percent! It was only late this afternoon that I finally got something sorted and got back online with a new modem and a new data plan. Now - your latest still does not convince me that the father of Dorcas Matthews' child was the husband of Kitty Trewhella. It does 'look' fairly obvious but ....... You previously mentioned only three William Uren's at Gulval in 1881 but now you show that the name was recorded as 'Huran' in the Bastardy case appeal so perhaps more variations of the name should also be considered to ensure all candidates are known. I have found an entry in the Royal Cornwall Gazette for April 1879 where a W Uren was nominated as the Gulval representative for the Board of Guardians. This is probably the man involved in the bastardy case but that nomination was just a couple of months prior to the appeal. The question now is whether this W Uren had been in the position before and was re-nominated or whether it was the first time 'a' W Uren had been in the position. From that I wonder about the possible age that a person might be to have been in what might seem to be such a responsible role. The husband of Kitty Trewhella would have been around 39 and he was certainly a farmer at Gulval but is that enough to 'convict him'? The parish registers indicate that he was 'of Gulval' in 1872 when his first two children were baptised at Towednack but then there is a gap of 7 years before Katie was born in 1878 and baptised in early 1879 at Gulval. But it should also be noted that this William Uren came from a Lelant family of several generations! The fact that the illegitimate child was born within just a few months of Katie Uren causes concern as does the period between the 1872 baptisms at Towednack and the 1878 birth of Katie. What happened during those 6-7 years? I still think there is not quite enough evidence to positively identify the father of Dorcas Matthews' child. CT |
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Post by tenpoundpom on Nov 22, 2013 5:54:22 GMT -5
First thing I need to do is to apologise for my 'absence' for the last several days. It was not of my doing but rather (yet again) a problem with my Internet Service saying that I had exceeded my data allowance when in fact I had used only 75% percent! It was only late this afternoon that I finally got something sorted and got back online with a new modem and a new data plan. Now - your latest still does not convince me that the father of Dorcas Matthews' child was the husband of Kitty Trewhella. It does 'look' fairly obvious but ....... You previously mentioned only three William Uren's at Gulval in 1881 but now you show that the name was recorded as 'Huran' in the Bastardy case appeal so perhaps more variations of the name should also be considered to ensure all candidates are known. I have found an entry in the Royal Cornwall Gazette for April 1879 where a W Uren was nominated as the Gulval representative for the Board of Guardians. This is probably the man involved in the bastardy case but that nomination was just a couple of months prior to the appeal. The question now is whether this W Uren had been in the position before and was re-nominated or whether it was the first time 'a' W Uren had been in the position. From that I wonder about the possible age that a person might be to have been in what might seem to be such a responsible role. The husband of Kitty Trewhella would have been around 39 and he was certainly a farmer at Gulval but is that enough to 'convict him'? The parish registers indicate that he was 'of Gulval' in 1872 when his first two children were baptised at Towednack but then there is a gap of 7 years before Katie was born in 1878 and baptised in early 1879 at Gulval. But it should also be noted that this William Uren came from a Lelant family of several generations! The fact that the illegitimate child was born within just a few months of Katie Uren causes concern as does the period between the 1872 baptisms at Towednack and the 1878 birth of Katie. What happened during those 6-7 years? I still think there is not quite enough evidence to positively identify the father of Dorcas Matthews' child. CT Thanks. I do like these little detective hunts, even if it is a bit of a side trail! Dorcas's child was Edith UREN Matthews in the baptismal record. I understand that this was how single mothers tagged the suspected father back in the days before DNA analysis. 'Huran' is a particularly uncommon surname in the English census records, and I cant't find any in Cornwall in the timeframe, and certainly not one as a member of the Board of Guardians. I'm not sure how the newspaper court reports were done in 1897, but if it was a reporter taking the proceedings in shorthand (Pitman's is a phonetic system), then I would not be surprised that "Uren" becomes "Huran" when it becomes typed up from the notebook. So my working hypothesis is that "Huran" is a red herring, and that the father is a "Uren" Is that father Kitty's husband? As you say there are a few things which should be resolved before we can lick that stamp and post it off! Placing the Matthews family at the farm at the time that would be very suggestive. I was a bit hyperbolic when I wrote that William was on the Board before Edith's birth. Checking the timeline, he was on the Board before the original June court case, but possibly not at the time of birth. From my readings of the Board reports in the newspapers, he was not on the board before 1879, but he does continue to be a board member through to at least 1884. The crucial question is whether the William Uren on the Board of Guardians is the same William as the farmer at Trevaylor. As yet, I don't have the definitive link, but he definitely remains a "person of interest" Sue's findings re Caroline Uren Matthews are intriguing! If the suspects have been correctly identified, maybe this wasn't just a weekend fling! I'll put most of this on the backburner, but I'm still trying to work out William's fate!! |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 22, 2013 8:42:13 GMT -5
There is much more to this whole scenario than what immediately meets the eye and the first thing of note is the baptismal entry for Edith:- Edith Uren daughter of S Matthews Matthews of Madron baptised 2nd October 1879 Madron In the forename field is written 'S Matthews' with 'Matthews' also written in the surname field. There is no mistaking that first initial being an 'S' as I have made comparisons with other writing on that same page. Also notable is the fact that I have not been able to find a Birth Registration in FreeBMD. There may be a couple of reasons for that including the possibility that the birth was never registered. And then there is Dorcas herself. Have you found a baptism or birth record for her? My guess is that you probably have not so let me help you out.  Dorkes Jenkin Eddy daughter of Elizabeth Jane Thomas of Treryn, single woman, baptised 1st July 1851 St Levan James Matthews of Treryn, labourer, married Elizabeth Jane Thomas of Treryn 15th October 1855 at St Levan If you have a close look at the 1861 Census you will find that Dorcas Matthews was age 9 and her next sibling age 5. So Dorcas Thomas became Dorcas Matthews after the marriage of her mother. And although her age is out by about 10 years in the 1891 Census this information now provides a probable link to the baptism of Caroline Uren Matthews daughter of Dorcas Thomas Matthews. Assuming this is the same Dorcas Matthews - do the names Edith Uren Matthews and Caroline Uren Matthews offer some clue to the identity of William Uren? More digging required methinks! CT |
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Post by tenpoundpom on Nov 23, 2013 23:10:02 GMT -5
More digging required methinks! CT Undertook some mining at the CRO, and dug up small nugget Quarter session reports QS/1/19/55 Extract - Appeal of William Uren, Trevaylor, Gulval against order of Harry Reginald Salusbury Trelawny and William Copeland Borlase, esq, J.Ps, of 4 Jun.1879 adjudging W.U. to be the putative father of bastard child of Dorcas Matthews: confirmed, costs £10 to be paid by appellant to respondent. Reasonable evidence, given the address, that the "correct" William Uren has been found. That the child's name is Edith Uren Mattews is linked by the date of birth recorded in the newspaper for the unamed child, being the same as the date of birth found on her death record in Cook County. Mother name on death record given as "Dorcos Matthews", born Penzance England. |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 24, 2013 4:22:22 GMT -5
Does that mean I have to put my cattle prod away now? That does seem rather conclusive evidence identifying Kitty's husband as the culprit in the case of Edith Matthews. But I don't know that we should then take it to mean he was also responsible for the two later daughters of Dorcas Matthews. Well done. CT |
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(BTW - Kate's birth was registered in the December Qtr of 1878)
to Dorcas Matthews be relevant to the continued whereabouts of Dorcas??