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Post by sallyt on Dec 30, 2012 20:18:06 GMT -5
I noted the reference to Thomas Grubb who married Selena Peake in this thread. Cornish Terrier, you refer to him as the second son of Richard and Mary Grubb.... is he the William in the 1851 and 1861 England census as there is no Thomas present and I am unable to find him elsewhere? Is he a Thomas William Grubb? The other query I have is: Is Thomas' father Richard, the one who came out to Australia and married secondly to Martha Cooper???
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Dec 31, 2012 0:17:50 GMT -5
Hi Sally - the name certainly appears as William in 1851 but it is NOT William in 1861. In fact in 1861 it is nigh on impossible to determine exactly what the name is without spending time making comparisons with the rest of the writing on that page. Further down the page you will find the name 'George Hosking'. Take note that the formation of the 'H' is very much different to the beginning of the name which has been interpreted as William. Then look at the page again and you will find names such as 'Trevaskis' and 'Taylor'. Taylor is the last name on the page and you will see that the 'T' is very similar to the first letter in the disputed name. The two letters that have obviously been interpreted as 'l' are actually the lower parts of the letters 'y' and 'J' from the name of 'Mary Jane' above. In fact although virtually indecipherable the name you are querying has been written quite firmly so any thought that the two letters might be 'l' should be questioned anyway. Look at the 'h' in the name of 'Phoebe Hosking' and note that it almost appears to be two separate marks with the lower upstroke virtually invisible. Now take a look at what appears to be the second last letter in 'William' - the one that you have taken as 'll'. You will find the name 'James' at least twice on this same page so take special note of the letter 'm'. You will note that one is perfectly readable as 'm' whilst the other looks almost exactly like that letter in 'William'. Finally, take a look at the letter in 'William' that looks like a 'v'. This is in fact an 'o'! The names is THOMAS! I don't know why he was recorded as William in 1851 but we do also have the following from the OPC Non-conformist Baptisms:- www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms_nc&id=88701I transcribed that one myself so can verify the details. I can't answer your last question immediately so will do some research and post the results a little later. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Dec 31, 2012 1:19:07 GMT -5
I would say 'probably'. Both died at Ballarat East within a year of each other and both had been previously married. According to the Pioneers Index Martha Hammond (nee Cooper) was born at Ipswich and in the 1851 and 1861 Census I can find a Martha Hammond with husband William. She is an almost exact match based on known details but the problem I face is that I can find no record of the marriage to help prove it. In 1861 the family is still in Ipswich with the entire family having been born there. I have also been unable to find Martha in the 1841 Census which could mean we are dealing with transcription errors. She may also have been with another family and enumerated under the wrong name! I have now found a marriage that would seem to confirm the names recorded at her death were correct:- John Cooper married Martha Mays 18th April 1816 St Lawrence, Ipswich, Suffolk FamilySearch shows a number of baptisms in Suffolk to John and Martha Cooper. It is possible there was another couple with the same names but ...... Martha daughter of John and Martha Cooper bp. 22nd July 1824 St Clements, Ipswich, SFK Maria daughter of John and Martha Cooper bp. 29th December 1829 St Clements, Ipswich, SFK There are other children but these seem to be the most important. What we have gives two possibilies - 1. if the family of William and Martha in the 1851 and 1861 Census is that of Martha Cooper then her age was incorrectly recorded from at least 1841 or 2. Martha died and another Martha was baptised with Maria entered in the register. Of course finding them in 1841 would help answer all questions! But then there is also this to add to the confusion! :- John Cooper married Martha Reeve 11th December 1815 - Suffolk County BTs (via FamilySearch) Over to you! CT
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Post by sallyt on Dec 31, 2012 19:07:26 GMT -5
Thanks CT, I had a relook at the 1861 census and agree that the writing is very questionable! - had forgotton that I am happy with a Thomas transcription. Richard is buried at Ballarat Cemetery with his wife Martha. He died in 1866 and according to the Vic BDM Richard is the son of Robert Grubb and Jane Sarah. Martha Cooper married a Mr Hammond at some point and her marriage to Richard Grubb occured in 1870 according to the Vic BDM
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Post by sallyt on Dec 31, 2012 19:47:40 GMT -5
Sorry about the previous entry, didn't see your second entry! I have Martha as the daughter of John Cooper and Martha Mayes (according to the Vict BDM). I have had a quick look at the 1841 census and can find no Suffolk born Martha with John as a father... I have found a Maria Cooper with a John Cooper father and a Maria mother ;D
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Dec 31, 2012 21:39:17 GMT -5
Hi Sally - I followed Martha's line as far as I could without getting myself immersed in days of headaches. No sign of her in 1841 but I also found, and wondered about, the entry with Maria. But there are also baptisms for Maria Cooper.
CT
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Post by Isambard on Feb 12, 2013 17:58:09 GMT -5
I noted the reference to Thomas Grubb who married Selena Peake in this thread. Cornish Terrier, you refer to him as the second son of Richard and Mary Grubb.... is he the William in the 1851 and 1861 England census as there is no Thomas present and I am unable to find him elsewhere? Is he a Thomas William Grubb? The other query I have is: Is Thomas' father Richard, the one who came out to Australia and married secondly to Martha Cooper??? G'Day y'all, I'm just catching up on the Grubbs again and from CT's responses below I understand the following, allowing for CT's "probably": Richard Grubb b. 1818 Penryn, who married Mary Randall Dunstan 1840 in Lelant emigrated to Aus after Mary Randall died in Lelant in 1859. He then married Martha Cooper and died in Ballarat in 1866. Richard Grubb's and Mary Randall Dunstan's second son's name was Thomas, b. 1844 Canon's Town, and not William. Thomas Grubb married Selena Peake. My records suggest that Richard's parents were Robert Grubb and Jane Stiles, married 1817 St. Gluvas; Richard having a brother Thomas Tyler Grubb b.1820 Perranzabuloe. Give me a cuff on the head if I've messed it up!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 12, 2013 21:07:12 GMT -5
Hi Isambard - almost right. Richard Grubb was baptised at Newlyn East 24th May 1818 son of Robert Grubb and Jane (nee Stiles). He had one shortlived brother - Thomas Styles Grubb baptised 6th March 1820 at Perranzabuloe and buried there 2nd July 1820. Richard Grubb died at Ballarat in 1886 (not 1866). The following entries are taken from the Victorian Pioneer's Index, 1836-1888:- Richard GRUBB (born Cornwall) married Martha HAMMOND (born Ipswich) 1870 (Reg. No. 2298) Richd GRUBB died Ballarat East 1886 age 65 (parents Robert and Jane Sarah) (Reg. No. 258) Martha GRUBB died Ballarat East 1887 age 58 (parents Jno COOPER and Martha MAYES) (Reg. No. 5207) CT
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Post by Isambard on May 18, 2014 17:18:38 GMT -5
G'day y'all! To use CT's analogy, I'm still checking the bottom of clothes basket for information about William Thomas Dunstan, and still not finding any missing socks (no more certificate searches at this time, thank you. I'm saving money for a trip to England in August with my wife) In the meantime I see that I'm missing the burial location for three of William's siblings: James Dunstan bap. 15 June 1855, burial 20 June 1855 Lelant, residence Canon's Town (OPC ref) James Dunstan b. 1859; burial 26 January 1871 Lelant, residence Canon's Town (OPC ref) Andrew Thomas Dunstan b. 1861 bap. 14 April 1861, burial 17 February 1871 Lelant, residence Canon's Town (OPC ref). Parents,James Dunstan and Mary Thomas Dunstan and daughter Susanna are buried in the Western Cemetery Lelant, burial dates respectively 25 November 1906, 20 April 1901 and 31 October 1884 (Maxwell Adams, Burials Western Cemetery 1877-1911 ref). I didn't find these deaths on Free BMD or OPC. Isambard
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Post by sue on May 19, 2014 3:28:29 GMT -5
Hi Isambard
Before 1877 when the new Lelant churchyard was opened, there are few surviving headstones, and I'm not aware that a burial map exists for the old churchyard so that you could even locate the approximate patch of grass for James, James & Andrew.
I don't know if you've contacted Chris Uphill, the OPC for Lelant? I've found her really helpful in the past. She holds some details of the locations of the graveplots for the new yard, which should help you find those graves for James, Mary & Susannah when you visit.
I will email you an aerial photo I have of the churchyard in case you haven't got one, so that you can see the overall layout.
Sue
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Post by sue on May 19, 2014 13:36:29 GMT -5
Mention Lelant graveyard & I get interested! In FBMD I find Susan Dunstan died Dec Q 1884 Penzance RD age 27; James Dunstan Dec Q 1906 Penzance RD age 85; Mary Dunstan Jun Q 1901 Penzance RD age 79. Looking at Maxwell's webpages, the Western cemetery at Lelant was for non C of E people i.e. non-conformists etc. These people would thus not appear in the parish register for Lelant as that would be the C of E register, much of which is transcribed onto OPC. Maxwell says in 2011 on his page specifically for the Western non-conformist cemetery “....The Register, which belongs to the Lelant Burial Board, is still in use”. I think "still in use" might explain why this particular register has not yet been made available to OPC for transcription...... I see Maxwell's transcriptions give you the information that this shared Dunstan grave is “next north Capt. Perry....at 18 Block D." Ah-ha. In Maxwell's notes re Western cemetery, he says “PERRY Richard no 4: Vicar's list, occupation Mine captain.” If you then look back to the register entries, it says for Richard Perry grave No 1 "Buried in choice ground brick grave for which paid £1-11-6" Maxwell has Richard Perry's gravestone as in Row 2, where "The rows are numbered west to east starting at the gate in Church Lane". So taking all these pieces of information together should find you the grave of James, Mary & Susan Dunstan, even if there isn't a visible/legible headstone for them. (I'm assuming during your trip to Cornwall that you intend to visit the Lelant church & graveyard, which I think is beautifully located.) I hope you have a memorable trip.... Sue
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Post by Isambard on May 19, 2014 17:42:51 GMT -5
Sue, thanks for the FBDM information, which I have since found that I did have from searches last year but failed to properly enter - sloppy me... I wish that we could have had that information from Maxwell's transcriptions when my family and I prowled about the Lelant church and graveyard during our 2005 summer visit to Cornwall. Thoroughly searching amongst the many moss covered and tumbled down monuments and tablets would have taken much more time than we had available, and at that time we were not even sure that the Dunstans were buried there. Perhaps we'll have better luck next time, although we may not have time for another Cornwall visit this year.
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