Pennsylvania Curnows

[brennus]

As mentioned in my introduction post on the Welcome forum, I am trying to trace the Curnow family, my father's mother's family. There is some confusion.

This is what I am certain of.
My Father's Mother was Ethel (Curnow) Smith. She was the daughter of William Francis Curnow and Sarah Blackwell. The Blackwells had been in Pennsylvania since at least the1700s and I am not concerned with them at the is time.
According to his obituary, William Francis Curnow was born in Hazleton Pennsylvania, in 1877, the son of William F. Curnow and Ellen Keye.
The 1900 U.S. Census shows William and Ellen living in Mahanoy City with their daughters Edith, Ethel and Minnie. A son, William is not here and it says Ellen is the mother of 12 children of whom three are living. (I think that means a miscarriages.) I am not sure where William is but, as he was 23, he wold not necessarily be at home any more.
The younger William Francis and his wife Sara Blackwell are buried in a cemetery near Mahanoy City on a lot with with Sara Blackwell's father AND the Ethel Curnow born in 1889 referred to in the 1900 census, whose married name is Fackler. I do not know where the elder William Francis and Ellen Curnow are buried. My Dad is not sure but I am looking for the elder William Francis' obituary and scouting in two possible cemeteries.
So, I have no doubt that my great-grandfather is the son of this William F. Curnow and Ellen Keye.
According to the 1900 U.S. Census, they were married in 1873 and immigrated in 1875.

Now, here are the things of which I am not certain. I have not been able to check the 1880 Census to find them, however, it would seem they were living in Hazleton, because the obituary says my great-grandfather was a native of Hazleton.
According to the very little oral family history that I got – because I don't know my Dad's family as well as my mother's --- “Grandpap Curnow came from England.” One relative, commenting somewhere about what her mother, the younger William Curnow's daughter Peg, told her, said he came from Liverpool on a ship when he was eight or nine.
So there is some confusion there but I am not so concerned by that because it is possible Ellen took the baby back home after he was born and stayed there for a few years and then returned in 1885/86. This secondary matter could be cleared up eventually by looking at ship records and, perhaps the British Census. Unless, someone already knows the answer to this.

The bigger issue I had was when I first started looking into this a few months ago, after I found that obituary, I typed in William Francis Curnow as a general google search and I found this users.tpg.com.au/bbolitho/stjust5/32974.htm a family tree for a Bolitho family and that is where I found a William F. Curnow dying in Pottsville in1915 but Married to ANNE HOLMAN. That made me wonder if it was a different person.
then I found this in a 1893 History of Luzerne County, where Hazleton is:

W. DAVID CURNOW, proprietor of meat market, Hazleton. Thispopular young business-man was born in Hazle township, a shortdistance from the city of Hazleton, January 17, 1868. He is a son of William and Anna (Holman) Curnow, natives of England, who came to America in 1866, locating at Beaver Meadows, where they remained a short time, subsequently removing to Stockton, where the subject of our sketch, who is second in a family of four children, was born and reared. After the close of his short school life, Mr. Curnow, worked in the mines, and has done all the work pertaining to mining coal, from slate-picking to cracking coal. He also ran a stationary engine for several years. Tiring of the mines, he engaged with Henry & Curtis in the meat business, and learned the trade. He then opened his present market, where he commands a very profitable and flourishing trade. Mr. Curnow votes the Republican ticket, and was brought up in the Methodist Episcopal faith. He is, at present, unmarried.

So, I wondered if the Bolitho family tree person had mistakenly put my great-great grandfather in where someone else should be or if they stuck the wrong wife with him because there was a record of this other William Curnow marrying an Anne Holman.

Then I came across the Penwith Genealogy forum and so this is where I am.

[sue]

Morning (from here!)

Just a really quick interim reply, as I am on my way out, but more later.

Yes, I too am aware of the info on Bob Bolitho's tree. I am going to suggest that Wm Curnow's wife's name was info passed to him, rather than being factually based in original records found.

And you will recall from CT's post that he said his info re the name of the mother of your William Francis had been given to him by another researcher a while ago.

As CT would be the absolute First to say, second, third hand info is not Evidence!

What we need between us to do is work step by step through actual information in original/transcribed records.

Our resident "expert" has found your Wm & Ellen in 1880 census with children: under KERNEW. That's a good start. I assume you have access to at least free FamilySearch to be able to view this census entry yourself, under that spelling (which myself I spectacularly failed to find!)

And the 1910 census declaration information re length of their marriage & date of immigration differs from 1900, so have a look at that.

What we need to scour for - & I have failed so far, but more work to be done - is find the actual marriage for William & Ellen in the early 1870s, which cannot be found so far in England, so odds on is in USA.

Very important to work one step at a time, evidence-based, not other people's trees, which are just clues - and sometimes erroneous/misleading clues! And absolutely, there are many William Curnows!

I would just say for the moment that it is quite feasible that your William Curnow's wife's name may have been incorrectly identified on other people's trees, but I think it's quite likely that what we will eventually Prove is that your William Curnow is the son of William Francis Curnow born 1850 Towednack - who is (I have traced through the transcribed/original records) the chap sharing Gparents with my ancestor, as I mentioned. William Francis Curnow is an uncommon Curnow name.

There are so many more records now available than there once were, so I am pretty confident we will prove the link back to your Cornwall Curnow ancestors between us!

More later - & I'm sure CT will have something to contribute.

Sue

[Cornish Terrier]

Brian - your information here is most welcome and already some of the mist begins to clear!

Here we seem to have a perfect example of what happens when people believe everything they read and then copy it religiously! Soon you have multiple 'sources' with the same information and everyone that follows takes it as fact!

In this case it has led to the fusion of two different people into one which has resulted in the likes of yourself (and us!) being somewhat confused!

But armed with the information provided here I do believe we might go a long way to setting the record straight.
To do that might involve working on the family of William David Curnow as well as your own William Francis Curnow at least until we have the families clearly separated.

Now then - Sue has briefly pointed out a couple of things from some work both she and I have done since your initial post. We do have a few problems to overcome but I am sure we can find ways around most of them.

The first and best place for us to start is the Census records which themselves provide some differing 'facts'. But if we piece all the information together then some sense can be made of it.

I will start with 1900 given for the first time we get some details on immigration along with some added details about marriage and family.
The important details from 1900 are as follows:-

William
Born - October 1849 England
Age - 50
Married - 27 years
Immigrated - 1875

Ellen
Born - March 1850 England
Age - 50
Married - 27 years
Immigrated - 1875
No of children - 12
Children still living - 3

In the household we have 3 children:-
Edith - born October 1887 Pennsylvania
Ethel - born September 1889 Pennsylvania
Minnie - born March 1892 Pennsylvania

We know that there was at least one other child, William Francis Curnow, still alive which means that Ellen must have answered the question about her children incorrectly!
She may well have been the mother of 12 children although that may be hard to verify unless you can get hold of the birth records from the County Court House.
But note that she has 3 children living at home in 1900 and she has answered 3 to the question of children still living. I think Ellen misunderstood the question.

There are two other main points to be considered now:-
1. married 27 years
2. immigrated 1875

'Married 27 years' indicates late 1872 or 1873 for the year of marriage and immigration in 1875 would indicate that the marriage must have occurred outside the US and probably in England. However that marriage cannot be found in England which immediately raises questions about the correctness of the answers.

So now let's take a look at the 1880 Census where, as Sue mentioned, I found the family enumerated as KERNEW.

1880 Census
Hazleton Borough, Luzerne, PA
William KERNEW, age 29, miner
Ellen do., age 30
John do., age 6
Ellen do., age 4
William F do., age 3
James do., age 1

This Census was taken on the night of June 18th so at age 6 eldest son John must have been born before June 1874 and I would expect the marriage would have taken place sometime before that.

Also note that in 1880 Ellen was older than William whereas in 1900 it was the other way round.

This information tells us that at least some of the answers given in the 1900 Census must be incorrect. So now I will take you forward to 1910 where William and 'Helen' are in Connecticut with their daughter Edith Kates.

As with 1900 I will simply outline the relevant information about William and Ellen/Helen as they appear in 1910.

William
Age - 59
Married - 38 years
Immigrated - 1871

Ellen/Helen
Age 61
Married - 38 years
Immigrated - 1868
No. of children - 12
Children still living - 4

Once again we find that Ellen is older than William although this time by two years. The number of children is still the same although this time Ellen states that there are 4 still living.

But the most noteable point is the details on when William and Ellen arrived in the US - William in 1871 and Ellen in 1868!

That brings me about to the point I was at prior to receiving your latest information. Now armed with that additional information I will close this post and begin another search to see what I can unearth about both William Francis Curnow and William David Curnow.

Hopefully I will have something of interest to add a little later tonight.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Some success!

As is often the case I have moved a little sideways to achieve part of our goal! And I can now positively identify Ellen KEY!

In 1870 you will find the KEY family at Hazletone, Luzerne, PA
John KEY, 44, blacksmith, England
Ann do., 46, wife, England
Ellen do., 21, at home, England
Annie do., 18, at home, England
John do., 16, blacksmith, England
Laura do., 14, at home, England
Bessie do., 10, at home, England

From here I have been able to trace the family back to Cornwall in the 1861 and 1851 Census. As is usual there is some conflicting information involved with things like place of birth. For instance - in 1861 John Key's birthplace is recorded as St Just but back in 1851 it is Wadebridge. I suspect Wadebridge would be more likely as Key is not what I would consider a West Cornwall name.

In 1861 there was also a 'boarder' in the household by name of Elizabeth Floyd who was then age 21. I suspect she will be related to Ann Key as you will see below and it is also possible that William Francis Curnow and Ellen Key were related.

There are other children of course but the main information you will be interested in for now is as follows:-

John KEY married Ann FLOYD in the June Qtr of 1843 in the Tavistock Registration District in Devon.
A son, Joseph, was born at Bearalston, Devon about 1844 and within a few years the family was at St Just in Penwith, Cornwall where Ellen was born.

1851 Census
Lafrowda, St Just, Cornwall
John KAYS, head, mar, 27, blacksmith, Wadebridge, Cornwall
Ann do., wife, mar, 29, Crowan, Cornwall
Joseph do., son, 7, scholar, Bearalston, Devon
Ellen do., daur, 2, St Just, Cornwall
Mary do., daur, 1mth, St Just, Cornwall

Ellen daughter of John (blacksmith) and Ann Key of Church Town was baptised 21st July 1850 at St Just, Cornwall

Her birth was registered in the March Qtr of 1849!

This information now fits with that found in the 1910 US Census which stated that Ellen immigrated in 1868. That then would suggest that the information for William Francis Curnow in 1910 might also be correct and that he arrived in 1871. That certainly explains why he cannot be found in the 1871 UK Census.

I will now gather the rest of the information about the Key family and enter it into my database.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

In my previous post I made the following comment:-

it is also possible that William Francis Curnow and Ellen Key were related.

I can now tell you that William Francis Curnow and Ellen key were ..... FIRST COUSINS! ;D

William Francis Curnow was the son of John Curnow and Alice FLOYD who married 13th January 1844 at Crowan

Ellen Key was the daughter of John Key and Ann FLOYD who married 1843 in Devon

Ann and Alice Floyd were second and third children of John Floyd and Alice Williams who were married 28th September 1818 at Crowan.

That's all for now as I need to get some other work done.

CT

[sue]

Alice Floyd having been baptized 12 Oct 1823 Gwinear Cornwall, her sister Ann 4 Mar 1821 Gwinear. (FamilySearch has these: these sisters are both equally your ancestors, Brian.).)

And this is what I was just about to post:

Great stuff, CT! I'm sure Brian will find your explanation about the US censuses regarding GGparents Wm Francis Curnow & Ellen Keye really helpful.

It is just such a pain that some people replicate other people's family tree information or deductions, without actually doing the painstaking research of original/transcribed documentation themselves, it causes such nightmarish messes!!

But what excellent news CT that you have so quickly found Ellen Keyes' family, 'cos it sorts out the position beautifully, without us having to take a diversion into proving that the butcher chap in the U.S. needs to be eliminated from enquiries.

Having reviewed the research I did a while ago on the parents of the William Francis Curnow born Dec Q 1850 Cornwall and their families, the jigsaw now looks pretty darned nearly complete and “proven” as to who your Curnow ancestors are, Brian.

Suffice it to say that I would not be surprised if the father of your 1877 William Francis Curnow, who I believe to be William Francis Curnow born Dec Q 1850 Cornwall, went to stay with his rellies the Keys family when he first arrived in the U.S. in 1871, & the rest is history!

But first you'll want to digest all the information in CT's last 2 posts. (Stop Press make that 3 now!) ;D

I don't know how familiar you are with the records available for England online, including ones available for free for Cornwall, but if f you don't know them, we can readily help you there to find your Cornish ancestors, when you're ready.

Another success, hurrah!!!

P.S. The "Francis" middle name for William Francis Curnow comes from the Floyd family.

Sue

[brennus]

Thank You, this is all so splendid. Obviously I have come to the right people.

I have not access to Ancestry.com but I have looked at FamilySearch.org. It doesn't always seem to work for me – because I can be prfoundly foolish at times -- but I'm getting better. I see that changing the spelling to Kernew worked wonders and there it is in the 1880 census.

I see I should start planning a trip to Luzerne County. If William and Ellen were married here in North America, there should be a record there and I wold also find William's naturalization certificate, assuming he was naturalized. I don't think these are online. I shan't get there for a while yet. I am waiting on a woman to look something up in church records here in town on the Smith family – not Cornwall related – and then I shall go to the historical society where we have a brand new big whoop computerized microfilm machine. Wen there, I will discover whom to contqact in Luzerne.

Meanwhile, that 1880 census, with two sons of whom I have never heard, because it would seem they died . . . that is most interesting. I must discuss this with my Dad and see if it jars any memories. He was unaware of any brothers of his grandfather and only knew of "Aunt Ethel."  These other children would have been buried somewhere and I think that that somewhere is where I will find William and Ellen buried. OR, there might be a Keye plot up there in Hazleton.  And of course, the whole kissing Cornish cousins thing, I can't wait to tell him about that.

It seems you people are already familiar with the maker of the Bolitho tree and immediately suspected an error due to second hand information. That helps a lot. Is that entire tree useless?

 By the way, what do “neweth” and “cress” mean? I guess “neweth” means “new person” or something like that.

Brian

[sue]

Hi Brian

CT is a marvel, isn't he? And I have spent more time than is good for me on piecing together the Curnows for myself, trying to ignore other people's online trees and deductions/links made in good faith some years ago, when less records were available. For example, some people had my GGfather Thomas Curnow down as dying in Colorado 1901..... yet I am in possession of an original photo of him sent to his wife, where he has helpfully written the date, place and occasion on the back: 1904! ;D

Once you are ready to look at your Cornish ancestors, you will find that there is a volunteer “Online Parish Clerk” for most parishes in Cornwall. Bob Bolitho is that for St Just in Cornwall. (I'm not suggesting you will need to contact him, I'm pretty sure nearly everything you need re your Cornish ancestors can be found for yourself online; I have already done much of "your" family that way myself. )

Bob is aware that from time to time corrections are needed to the information on his website, although he is a busy man and he can't do them instantly. For example, he & I had some correspondence last year, and I see that he has now made some of the corrections to my Curnows that we discussed – goodness, I see right down to my own father is now correctly there!

I would Beg you not to use other people's online trees as a source for your own family history. Other people's trees can be interesting, entertaining, have a few possible clues, are quite often delusional, fairytale - and sometimes spot on.

There really is only one way to do this, and that is for yourself, accessing transcribed/actual/microfiched/digitized records of births/marriages/deaths.censuses etc.etc. , more and more of which are becoming available online.

What CT & I have quoted in these recent posts can all be verified for yourself in such online 1sthand records, most of them free.

And even information from one's own family's older generations and/or obituaries can be incorrect, for a variety of reasons, though it is great to have and often priceless.

I have found that the more I use FamilySearch, the better I get. (CT is extremely good at it.) And they add extra Collections often.

Have you looked in detail at the page that lists the Collections for US records? It includes Pennsylvania Naturalisation records, although I have as yet not found William F Curnow despite trying again this afternoon – mind you, I wonder what spelling for Curnow....!

The Pennsylvania County Marriages Collection on FamilySearch has several marriages for your family (you may well have found them already), including Wm F Curnow to Sarah Jane/Sadie, and several of their girls. I haven't spent an awful lot of time on searching them down yet.

I have a copy of the 1844 marriage register entry for John Curnow~Alice Floyd. Should you want it, drop me a private/personal message on this forum with your email address (I don't publicise my own email address I'm afraid) and I can email it to you.

P.S. Your ancestor being William Francis Curnow born Towednack late 1850 as we have just “proved” does indeed mean you & I are related! His father John Curnow was 1st cousin to my GGfather John Curnow 1815 Towednack.

[Cornish Terrier]

Brian - I think Sue has summed things up nicely here so I will keep this post brief. Besides, I have been busy with other things and not found anything more to add just yet!

But you did ask a question:-

By the way, what do “neweth” and “cress” mean? I guess “neweth” means “new person” or something like that.

When Kathie first set up this Board (with me as her guinea pig) it was decided that we would add a form of identification for users. It is basically a scaled view of the experience and activity of our members.

Noweth is, as you say, basically a 'newbie' or someone who has been around a while but only posted a couple of times.
All the words are from the Cornish Dictionary and I think Kathie was a little tongue-in-cheek when she decided on the highest level!

noweth - new
ysel - low
cres - middle
ughel - high
dew - god

I think that covers them all.

I am shown as 'Administrator' now but prior to that I was labelled 'dew' mostly because I am responsible for thousands of posts! We do have at least one other 'dew' at the moment and that is Lannanta.

CT