Ann Bennatts Pickersgill

[Sarch]

Did Ann Bennatts Pickersgill who married Henry Downing in St Ives on 21 Jul 1817 remarry??

I can find three possible marriages for a widowed Mrs Downing

1836 West Briton J. Jnr WILLIAMS Nancy (Mrs) DOWNING alias DUNN, ELIAS, BRYANT (note says that this is her 4th marriage although she is just over 30 years old)


1838 West Briton Jasper WILLIAMS A. (Mrs) DOWNING


1838 Madron Jasper WILLIAMS HANNAH DOWNING


I can find two marriages for an Ann Pickersgill
1802 St Ives John BARNES Ann PICKERSGILL
1817 St Ives Henry DOWNING Ann Bennatts PICKERSGILL

Can only find one Baptism in St Ives for Ann PICKERSGILL 25th April 1779 but that would make Ann about 38 years old on marriage to Henry Downing.


I can find a possible 1841 Census entry
1841 Census
Piece: HO107/144/5 Place: Penwith -Cornwall Enumeration District: 3
Civil Parish: St. Ives Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 44 Page: 26
Address: Bailey Lane
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
WILLIAMS Ann F 40 Seaman's Wife Cornwall
DOWNING Grace F 20 Cornwall
DUNN Georgiana F 7 Cornwall

Grace Downing ( who married Richard Quick in1842) if this is the correct Grace above, names a daughter Georgina

Is the Ann Williams in the 1841 Census Ann Pickersgill and is Grace Downing in 1841 Census Grace Bennatts Downing?

Think I might have wires crossed or something



Sarch

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Sarch - seems you need a quick lesson in Pickersgills!

I will try and keep it simple.

At this point I have no knowledge of a second marriage for Ann Bennetts Downing (nee Pickersgill) but I will check.

This is going to take me a little longer than I thought. The first problem I have encountered is that, apart from the West Briton, I can find no reference or record anywhere for the 1836 marriage of J Williams jnr to the thrice widowed Nancy!

I can identify the two Ann Pickersgills for you but will put everything together once I have tracked down some more information.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Prior to checking all my Pickersgill information I need to report total and absolute failure regarding the 1836 marriage between J Williams jnr and Nancy of the multiple marriages.

There is no record of any of the four marriages under any combination of names in either FamilySearch or in the OPC site. And I have checked the most likely PRs that I have which have not yet been added to the above sites.

The problem with the West Briton entry is that it does not say just WHERE the marriage occurred so it may not have been in Cornwall, or even in England for that matter!

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Time to look at these Pickersgills!

The two entries you show for Jasper Williams are for the same event. But there is a little more to it than appears on the surface!

Jasper Williams was baptised at St Ives 27th May 1798 son of Jasper Williams and Mary (nee Stevens)

Jasper Williams married Mary Chellew 17th October 1830 at St Ives and then Mary died 23rd November 1833 at the age of 33 after having one daughter, Mary (1833-1834)

Jasper Williams, widower, married Hannah Downing, widow, at Madron 29th May 1838

Hannah was baptised Hannah Berriman 20th October 1806 Penzance Wesleyan Circuit. She was born at Penzance 30th July 1806 daughter of Nicholas Berriman and his wife Elizabeth Spasshatt.

James Downing married Hannah Berriman 3rd October 1829 at Madron

There were three children (Nicholas Berriman, Margaret Elizabeth and James) before James Downing died. He was buried at Penzance 31st July 1833 at the age of 28.

I can find two marriages for an Ann Pickersgill
1802 St Ives John BARNES Ann PICKERSGILL
1817 St Ives Henry DOWNING Ann Bennatts PICKERSGILL

Can only find one Baptism in St Ives for Ann PICKERSGILL 25th April 1779 but that would make Ann about 38 years old on marriage to Henry Downing.

Ann Pickersgill bp. 25th April 1779 was the daughter of Samuel Pickersgill (recorded as Wm.) and Ann Husband who were married at St Ives 6th May 1778.

Samuel and Ann had three other children that I have found:-

George bp. 4th June 1780 (father recorded as Wm.) <===
Sarah bp. 21st Octber 1781
Samuel bp. 18th July 1784

All were baptised at St Ives.

George Pickersgill, mariner and a minor, married Jane Bennatts 14th October 1798 at St Ives by Licence and with consent of parents.

Jane was baptised 8th June 1778 at St Ives daughter of Thomas Bennatts and Grace (nee Osborne).

George and Jane Pickersgill had three children:-

Ann Bennetts bp. 17th March 1799 (recorded as Nancy Bennetts Pickersgill)
Samuel bp. 24th January 1802
Sarah bp. 9th September 1804

George Pickersgill age 25 was buried 15th January 1805 at St Ives.

Edward James, widower, of Paul married Jane Pickersgill, widow, 3rd October 1808 at St Ives

Edward James was first married to Delia Woodcock 17th July 1799 at Paul.

That might keep you going for a little while!

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Still trying to unconfuse matters with the Downing connections!

Prior to this I had just one child to Henry and Ann Downing:-

Grace Bennetts Downing bp. 25th October 1818 St Ives Wesleyan Circuit (born 11th October 1818) (She married Richard Quick)

But it appears that there was at least one further child:-

George Patrick Rosmor Dunn son of Henry and Nancy Downing bp. 16th September 1829 St Ives

But what happens after this would seem to suggest that perhaps George Patrick was an illegitimate child of Nancy Downing.

Georgiana Osborn daughter of George Patrick (Captain in the Army) and Ann DUNN of St Ives bp. 26th February 1851 St Ives

I am yet to find a marriage for this couple but as George was in the Army then perhaps it was elsewhere in the UK or perhaps somewhere overseas.

But then enter the 1851 Census:-

1851 Baileys Lane, St Ives
Anne B WILLIAMS, wife, mar, 49, mariner's wife, St Ives
Georgiana O Dunne, daur-in-law, 17, School Mistress, St Ives

That matches with the 1841 Census extract you posted earlier except at that time Grace Downing from Ann's marriage to Henry Downing was present.
It also suggests that Ann had a second illegitimate child but even more interesting is that this particular name was used more than once.

Georgiana Osborn Dunne born about 1833/4 to Ann Bennetts Downing

Georgiana Osborn Dunn bp. 26th February 1851 St Ives d/o George Patrick and Ann Dunn

Georgiana Osborn Dunn Quick born about 1852 and baptised 12th July 1857 Bodmin daughter of Richard and Grace Bennetts Quick

But they all just seem to up and disappear!

But it does appear that the 1836 marriage reported in the West Briton may well be Ann Bennetts Downing.
Only thing is that I think the note about the previous 'marriages' is not quite accurate and I suspect there was more than one liaison involved.

CT

[Sarch]

Hi CT

The problem is that a lot of what we are searching for is before Civil Registration -


I'm wondering who the Bryant was and if they had children as well?


I can't find a burial for Henry Downing or George Patrick Rosmor Dunn Downing, or George Patrick Dunn (Officer)


I think Henry Downing died between about 1818 and 1836 when Ann married J Williams

Baptism of Georgina in 1851 is a mystery
but could be an adult baptism?

I found a marriage for Georgiana Dunn
Married 15 Nov 1857 St Ives to John Rosewall
(Father George Patrick Dunn, Officer in County)

Thanks for the help


Sarch

[Cornish Terrier]

G'day Sarch

When I turned on the monitor to start checking emails etc. it had only just occurred to me to take a look to see if I could find any other possible stray children of Ann Downing under the other names mentioned in the West Briton. And of course the next thing I see is your latest note which mentions virtually the same thing!

And within a few minutes another little part of the problem falls into place!

Your mention of the marriage of Georgina Dunn to John Rosewall at St Ives gave me something to work with so I checked my St Ives records and located the marriage. Georgina was of 'full age' so obviously the 1851 baptism was not that of a child.

To find out more I checked the 1861 Census and found:-

Warren St, Devonport
John ROSEWALL, head, mar, 27, Shipwright, St Ives
Georgina do., wife, mar, 26, St Ives
Adeline do., daur, 8mo, Stoke Damerel

At age 26 Georgina must have been the Georgina Dunn living with Ann Williams in 1841 and 1851 at age 7 and 17 respectively.

That information might now enable me to get somewhere! But first I need to update the database and see how the picture looks.

Hopefully there will be some additions to this a little later.

BTW - I also just checked the St Ives PR for the marriage of Ann Bennetts Pickersgill and Henry Downing which states that Henry Downing was a mariner of Mawnan.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

There is something drastically wrong with the report in the West Briton!

The 1841 and 1851 Census seem to verify that Ann Bennetts Downing became Ann Williams but I don't think the West Briton's report on how that came about is quite accurate!

Remember that the West Briton came out on a Friday so any events recorded as (e.g.) 'on Wednesday Last' are based on the date of the issue as a starting point.

So let's have a look at some entries form the West Briton for 1836:-

16 September

On Sunday last, at St Ives, Captain Andrew Thomas, of the schooner "Diligence", of that port, to Agenora, eldest daughter of Mr. W. Allen, collector of lights.

If 16th September was Friday then 'Sunday last' would have been the 11th. From the St Ives Parish Register:-

Andrew Thomas, of this Parish, bachelor, and Angerona Eddy, of this Parish, spinster, were married in this Church by Licence this Eleventh Day of September in the Year One thousand eight hundred and thirty six

Andrew Thomas and Angerona Eddy both signed their names.

23 September

On Wednesday last, Mrs. Nancy Downing, alias Dunn, Elias, Bryant, to Mr. J. Williams, jun., pilot. This is the fourth time the [bride] has been led to the hymeneal altar, though she is [very] little above 30 years of age.

On the same day Mr. Vivian Stevens, of Trevalgen, farmer, to Thomasine, daughter of Mr. J. Penberthy, of Pulmanhoe, both of St. Ives.

And now for the entries from the St Ives Parish Register:-

John Williams of this Parish, bachelor, and Ann Bryant of this Parish, spinster, were married in this Church by Banns this twenty first Day of September in the Year One thousand eight hundred and thirty six

Both bride and groom signed with their mark.


Vivian Stevens of this Parish, bachelor, and Thomasin Penberthy of this Parish, spinster, were married in this Church by Banns this twenty first day of September in the Year One thousand eight hundred and thirty six

Groom signed his name and the bride made her mark.

23rd September being a Friday then 'Wednesday last' must have been the 21st.

So how does Ann Bryant, spinster, suddenly become Mrs Nancy Downing with three previous marriages?

With two obvious errors in two successive editions perhaps we should be asking what the reporter was smoking? ;D

Of course this does absolutely nothing to help solve the problem we started with does it!

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Hmmm - a minor correction to my last!

This concerns the marriage of Andrew Thomas and Angerona Eddy as reported in the West Briton 16th September 1836. It appears possible that the reporting in this case was not quite as inaccurate as I suggested.

Angerona daughter of Jane Eddy, illegitimate, baptised 12th February 1809 St Ives

So perhaps the West Briton has identified the father!

CT

[Sarch]

Hi CT

This is a long shot but what about


Marriage 16 May 1829 St Hilary
Groom John Thomas Bryant, Res. St ives, Bachelor
Jane Bennett Res Camborne. Widow

The dates don't fit for the birth of Georgina Dunn which is about 1834 - but its the only Bryant wedding I can find that might fit our Ann Pickersgill


Sarch

[Cornish Terrier]

Sarch - if you read through my last I think you will find there is enough there to question whether there really was such a marriage.
The West Briton identified the marriage of Nancy Downing married J Williams on September 21st 1836 and that on the same day Vivian Stevens married Thomasine Penberthy.
The St Ives PR shows that Vivian Stevens was married in that Parish on September 21st 1836 and the preceding entry, for the same day, has the marriage of John Williams, bachelor, and Ann Bryant, spinster.

I would not waste too much time and effort hunting for that particular 'supposed' marriage at the moment, particularly as no children have been found.
The 1841 and 1851 Census seem to make it clear that Ann did marry someone named Williams so that would be the one to concentrate on although it should be noted that 'Mr Williams' can never be found in the Census with Ann and the children!

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Sarch - a further point regarding that 1836 marriage between John Williams and Ann Bryant.

I mentioned earlier that both John Williams and Ann Bryant signed the register with their marks.

When Ann Bennetts Pickersgill married Henry Downing she signed with a nice legible signiature.

CT

[Sarch]

Hi CT

This is still related - sort of

I went searching for how the name Osborn/e
got into the Richard Quick & Grace Bennetts Downing family and found that Ann Bennatts Pickersgill's grandmother was Grace Osborne

Grace Osborne married Thomas Bennatts 11 Jun 1776 St Ives
Did the son of Thomas & Grace Bennatts - Robert Osborne Bennatts marry Jane Quick on 3 Mar 1812 St Ives?


Just checked my records and I don't have parents for Robert Bennetts m to Jane Quick.


Re J Williams & Ann Bryant - West Briton has his Occupation as Pilot. On 1841 Census Ann Williams is listed as Seaman's wife.
Small connection I know - I would have thought a Pilot would have to be literate and perhaps have a Masters ticket?


I know that there is an exam for a Master Mariner now but not sure what existed to get to Master Mariner in the 1800s?

The mark on marriage certificate by J Williams & Ann Bryant also caught my eye and I wondered about it but then also wondered about the spinster as well - was it a mistake by the minister?

I am sure something will turn up eventually and will shed light on the whole problem. BUT see below -


Searched for George Patrick Dunn and Georgina Dunn found a query in this board under Which Elizabeth Quick m which James Quick? in 2008 No answers tho ;D


Will have to try and check military records for GP Dunn and see what turns up


Sarch

[Cornish Terrier]

Sarch - I only made a decision on the identity of Robert Bennetts, husband of Jane Quick, a couple of days ago.

It had puzzled me for a long time and seemed obvious that he should have been Robert Osborne Bennetts but his age was wrong by about 9 years.
On looking at the problem again it was obvious that Jane Quick's husband had to be Robert Osborne Bennatts and that his baptism must have been delayed. After all, there the previous child had been baptised in 1784!

And, of course, Robert and Jane named a son Robert Osborne Bennetts.

I will take a look at the other thread you mentioned about Elizabeth Quick and James Quick. Maybe I have some answers these days!

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Sarch - Afraid I cannot find the thread you refer to?

You said it was - 'Which Elizabeth Quick m. which James Quick?' - but it is not under St Ives.

The only one I can find is 'Which Thomas Noall m. which Elizabeth Quick?'

Please enlight me!

CT