Harry family 1690 - 1725

[gatp63]

I am trying to establish a link between Katherine Harry who marries William Rogers of Sancreed and the Harry's of Madron.

Katherine's marriage took place in Madron in 1724. She has 3 children in Madron - Philip, Amy and Hugh and dies in Madron in 1731.

I can find a Hugh Harry who is having children in Madron in late 17th early 18th century. His children include an Amy born 1695 and a Philip born 1705.

The names Hugh, Amy and Philip do not feature in William Rogers' family.

William Rogers was born 1699 so his wife being born around this time makes sense and would fit with her being a child of Hugh Harry referred to above. But was she? I can find no baptisms recorded for children of Hugh in Madron between 1695 and 1701.

Can anyone help?

Regards,

Glenn

[trencrom]

While not familiar with the family you describe, on the face of it, it would seem likely that you have identified the correct family for Katherine. "Hugh" is not at all a common name in Penwith at that time, so if it does not appear in the Rogers family then that makes a good case for Hugh Harry being the father of your Katherine, especially as you have found some christenings that match the names of her children. If William Rogers is from Sancreed then his marriage taking place in Madron might well point to Katherine coming from there.

I would suggest the following to try and confirm the connection:

1. Check for any wills of a Hugh Harry in the Madron area.

2. Check also for any wills in the name of his wife.

3. 1695 to 1701 is a substantial gap between children. Are any of Hugh's children christened in other, nearby parishes?

4. Are there any gaps in the Madron registers at this time?

5. Did Hugh's son Philip leave a will?

6. Does the name "Katherine" appear amongst the names of Hugh's siblings, or amongst the names of the siblings of his wife?

Hope this helps

Trencrom

[cathy]

Hello both,

I have spent the last couple of hours trying to locate Hugh Harry of Madron and his children and have failed miserably. The only one I found was in the Madron registers, baptised Jan 2nd 1661 son of John Harrie. Poss Father of the Hugh we are looking for? Can I ask where you found Hugh and his family please Glenn?

I have followed your advice Trencrom and looked for Wills but so far no luck! Will keep trying!

Many thanks,

Cathy

[Cornish Terrier]

Cathy,
The baptisms of the three 'known' children of Hugh Harry can be found in the Madron Parish Registers which are available in the Cornwall Parish Registers collection on FamilySearch.

The Hugh Harry baptised 1661 is very likely the father of these children although I would not take it for granted.
I have not had a decent opportunity to search for a marriage as yet but there is no guarantee that it occurred in Madron. It would obviously have been prior to 1700 but the main problem is that it where it occurred would largely have depended on the bride and her resident Parish.
If the marriage happened to take place in somewhere like Sennen or St Levan then it is unlikely to be found as registers for those two Parishes prior to 1700 are no longer extant.
And the registers for some Parishes at that time, St Buryan for example, are often fragmented and water-damaged.

But that is looking on the down side! If we look on the bright side then it may be that the event is in a register that has not yet been transcribed. If that is the case then we should be able to find it.

CT

[cathy]

Hi CT,

Firstly thank you for directing me to the registers section of Family Search, I hadn't found these for myself and I will spend some time exploring a new resource!!

The Madron book is one that I already have a copy of and one that I have now looked at for several hours and yet I still fail to find the children of Hugh that we are discussing. Am I looking in the right place? I am looking at the Baptisms section in the front half of the book.

While looking at FamilySearch I found another Hugh Harry to the one I mentioned above, being Hugh Harry baptised at Paul on 19/8/1677, another contender? I looked at the Paul registers on FamilySearch but found them very difficult to read, OPC found nothing either.

Never one to give up I will keep looking!

Cathy

[Cornish Terrier]

Cathy - I have also now had a look through the Madron Book and failed to find them but, undaunted, I hunted on and have found a couple of answers.

The actual first register of Madron looks fairly consistent with baptisms up to around 1686 and thereafter the baptism/birth entries appear to be largely entered at random.
In some places I can see that there are entries for the 1670s and 1690s on the one page but in no particular order. In other pages there are only three or four entries scattered over each page.

So, having not found any of the 'known' baptisms in this register, and therefore not in the Madron Book, I decided to have a look at FamilySearch (old IGI) to check the Source Information for each entry.
From that little excercise I have discovered that all entries will be found probably except for the Baptism of Amey Harey in 1695.

Amey daughter of Hugh Harey was baptised 14th July 1695 at Madron - the source information for the entry states that it comes from LDS Film 90257 and after checking details of that film I found that it is from the Bishops Transcripts.
Unfortunately I don't have those BTs and they are not online so we can only rely, at least for the moment, on the FamilySearch transcribed entry.

The other baptisms are a little confusing. The Source Film for these is 254188 which is a later filming of the First Register covering - Christenings 1592-1707, Marriages 1577-1677 and Burials 1577-1681.
This is confusing because I already know that the entries we want are not in the First Register.

In fact the remaining baptisms for the children of Hugh Harry are actually in Volume 3 of the Madron Registers which covers Baptisms, Marriages and Burials from 1700 to 1736.
The problem is that this Volume is not currently available on FamilySearch.

So - given that I have a copy I will post the information as follows. (Note that I provide the information that is actually in the register whereas FamilySearch has altered the year to reflect the Gregorian Calendar):-

Baptisms

1701
Jacob ye son of Hugh Harry of ye Parish Dec: 11
1702
Jone the Daugr. of Hugh Harry of Maddern Febr: 7
1705
Philip the son of Hugh Harry (alias Penreeth) of Maddern Septr. 28
1707
Francis the son of Hugh Harry of Maddern February 8

Burials

1701
Jacob ye son of Hugh Harry of Md. Dec: 14
1707
Joan the daughter of Hugh Harry of Maddern May 20

Those then are all the entries corresponding to the information found in FamilySearch.

With burials for only two of the children it may be possible to find more information by tracking down Amy, Philip and Francis.

CT

[cathy]

Hmm, seems it's possible our Amy may have married a John Opey of Stithians at Madron on 27/1/1721. Can't find any other mention of Philip and Francis as yet but will keep looking!

Cathy

[gatp63]

Dear Cathy and CT.

I did my search via findmypast.co.uk and discovered the entries described above. Amy shows up as the daughter of Hugh Hare.

Thanks for the reference to a Hugh Harry baptism in Paul in 1677 and another in Madron in 1661. I am favouring the latter at this point since the former would have Hugh at less than 20yo at the birth of Amy (assuming he was baptised soon after his birth).

Hugh at 29yo is more promising.

I have checked all births/baptisms in Cornwall to Harry/Harries/Harris/Hare between 1695 and 1699 and there are none where the father's name is Hugh (again findmypast.co.uk).

I have yet to find a marriage for Hugh.

Glenn

[Cornish Terrier]

IGI/FamilySearch has the surname as HAREY at the baptism of Amey.

Whichever way it is I have not been able to find it in copies of the original Parish Register.

As previously mentioned the FamilySearch entry was transcribed from the Bishops Transcripts which I do not have access to.

CT

[trencrom]

Hi Cathy and Glenn,

If entries in the Madron registers are apparently entered at random after 1686 then that suggests that there may be missing entries for that period of time.

I agree that Hugh of 1661 seems to be the best candidate for Hugh the father but more evidence is required. At the same time, the presence of two Hugh Harrys, both christened in a 20 year time frame and in adjacent parishes, could be coincidence but given the uncommonness of the given name it probably isn't. Could Hugh of Paul be, say, a nephew of Hugh of Madron? You may have to work on trying to reconstruct the extended family to clarify who is who. Sometimes when we get stuck going backwards going sideways like this can resolve the problem.

It might be worth checking hearth tax for the parishes in question as this will give you an indication as to the distribution of the surname in the generation immediately preceding Hugh.

Also, if one of the entries mentioned above gives an alias surname of "Penreeth" then you should certainly also check occurrences of that surname in hearth tax, wills, christening records etc.

The relevant BTs should certainly be checked and may well be your best hope of clarifying the issue.

Best of luck,

Trencrom

[Cornish Terrier]

Trencrom et al - The following extract may help explain some of the reasons for our dilemma with these entries for Madron.

These notes refer to the early Madron Registers and I quote in part:-

The first three volumes of registers show the individuality of their compilers.
Book 1 was compiled in 1602 by George Hutchens, vicar of Madron and Morvah, and rector of Ludgvan. This is the vicar who is said to have preached against the superstitious value assigned to the water of the wishing well, but who himself was cured by a draught of the same water.
His register contains the copies of the baptisms, marriages and burials, from 1577. Unfortunately the first four pages are missing, and the title page of the baptisms. The marriages and burials have to commence with a full page drawing done in pen and ink, showing some skill in design and workmanship.
Book 2 was begun in the vicariate of Reginald Trenhayle, the vicar of Madron, who for some unknown reason was buried in Westminster Abbey. He was probably also vicar of Newlyn East and may have been the painter of the ancient pictures now hanging in Landithy Hall. He began his register with an elaborate frontispiece, giving the names of the officials of Penzance; unfortunately the splendid promise of his opening page was not kept up. His entries are the most untidy and careless of them all. His new book begins in 1693, after he had been vicar here for 30 years and ends at his death in 1700. The third volume was begun by Vicar Thomas Rowe. He is the vicar who, his monument says, longed from early boyhood to be the vicar of Madron. He gave the pulpit and sounding board still in use and the belfry screen. His opening page is plain and dignified, and he kept his books in splendid condition (vicar 1700-1716).

CT