William Bryant Noall - which one!

[anothernoall]

I started to trace the family tree for my In-Laws in St Ives, i have started with next to no information and have soon come unstuck...

The farthest i can trace so far (is pitiful i know!) is to a William Bryant Noall born 1879abt who married Honor John James also born 1879abt, and who were married in 1900.

We are querying wether this is the same WB Noall who in the 1891 census was listed as a lodger with Wb Noall and Mary (nee Peters). This would fit with the family story that his parents died of influenza and the children were sent to other relatives....

At this point i seem to have drawn a blank to his true parents, whilst also acknowledging i am stumped as where else to look!

I saw in an earlier thread "Clarinda Trewellha Noall" someone (i forget who sorry!) had listed Philip Noall as his father, I would love some evidence of this if its at all possible!

There are so many Noalls and it seems so sad to become unstick at such an early point!

In acknowledging my novice status i apologise for my probably easy to solve query

Thanks all, maybe we'll even find some extended family!

[londoner]

Our "Cornishmaid" is the one you need - she has lots of Noall info but hasn't been online recently. I'm sue she will be interested.

[anothernoall]

Thankyou Londoner for your kind and speedy reply I look forward to making contact with CornishMaid and have my fingers crossed she will be back online soon!

I managed to trace the family a little farther back...

to Philip Noall (b1843/44) and Elizabeth Ann Care (b 1849)

and to his father, another W.B Noall whom i beleive was also married to an Elizabeth.

Elizabeth is also registered in further censuses as Elisabeth B Noall, and yet I come unstuck again...... I find many references to an Elizabeth Ninnes Noall and W B Noall of very similar dates, but somehow their children dont quite seem to tally with what i have...

So if this lady isnt Elizabeth Ninnes Noall i havent been able so far to find her surname, or indeed the father of the last WB Noall, which is the line im trying to follow....

So back to searching for me..at this rate i think i may have many sleepless nights ;D

I look forward to making contact with you all !

[cornishmaid]

Hello

Will try and have a look at this for you in the next couple of days. Just for starters, there were 2 William Bryant Noalls born around the same time, one in 28 April 1877 (bapt. 23 May 1877)who married Honor John James; and another born on 9 November 1880 (bapt. 26 November 1880). The first one was buried in St Ives, the second one emigrated 27 June 1909, amd was naturalised on 22 June 1922, New York.

The one born in 1877 was the son of Philip Noall and Elizabeth Ann Care.

The one born in 1880 was the son of William Bryant Noall and Mary Ann Peters. His grandparents were Williams Bryant Noall and Elizabeth Ninnes.

(Above subject of course to anyone telling me I'm wrong. All contributions gratefully received )

Hope this helps a bit for now. Will try to get back to this asap. And how lovely to find another Noall researcher ;D. Am looking forward to many future discussions on the topic

[anothernoall]

Hi Cornishmaid

Many thanks for this post, it certainly cleared up as i suspected that the two records i had found were for two different people .

The line i am trying to trace is from the Philip Noall and Elizabeth Ann Care side, and i managed to get a further generation back to the parents of Philip Noall (b 12/1843) to his parents.........

W.B Noall (b 1816/17) and Elizabeth ? (b1820)

and their Children;

Philip Noall (012/1843)
William Bryant Noall (b1855)
Elizabeth W Noall (1847/8)
Mary Cogan Noall (b1859)

Both The father W B Noall and Elizabeth (also recorded as Elisabeth B Noall in 1891 census) list their place of birth as St Hiliary, then later S Nees, with children Philip and Elizabeth also being listed as born in St Hiliary........i'm currently only researching over the net so i'm hoping at some point to be able to verify all this in person and with the hope of finding Elizabeths surname.

So far i havent managed to trace the later W B Noall (b1816), and also Elizabeths, parentage, though their daughters name Mary Cogar Noall I am hoping will give me a little lead...Although i have found the earlier line of Matthew Noall (b1788) marrying Jane/Jenny Cogar (b1790) and their listed children, i havent yet been able to link it altogether...im presuming theres a link somewhere and W B and Elizabeth didnt just decide to give Mary the Cogar name quite randomly!

Ill carry on Looking, (already i fear im a little addicted...!) and maybe look to the naming patterns too for further clues as the direct descendants of M.Noall and J.Cogar certainly bear some first names that appear further down the family line. Of course doing all this over the net I could be completely wrong.....

Thanks for your help till now, and hope i can help back at some point

[anothernoall]

sorry correction to above, Mary Cogan Noall should read Cogar

[cornishmaid]

Hi there

Right, don't want to hit you with too much information all at once, but the parents of the Philip Noall that married Elizabeth Ann Care were William Bryant Noall and Elizabeth Ninnes. Going back a further generation we have Philip Noall and Margery Bryant (this is where the Bryant as a middle name comes in). I have another 4 generations back from there if you need them.

Now, I don't know which census says St Hiliary as a birth place, but the one saying "st nees" is definitely wrong. I've had a look at the original census image and it says St Ives. I was ages trying to find them. The transcriber wrote the town down wrongly!

Now... as to how the middle name "Cogar" came to be. As far as I am concerned you are definitely right to link Matthew Noall and Jenny/Jane Cogar to the family. This is where it gets complicated.. Philip Noall (the one that married Elizabeth Ann Care) had a Great Great Grandad called Philip (yep, another one). This Phillip had a brother called Simon who married a Mary Paynter. Their son Simon married an Elizabeth Jennings; they then had a son called Matthew, who married Jane/Jenny Cogar! This would make William Bryant Noall 2nd cousin once removed to the Matthew Noall that married Jane/Jenny Cogar.

Hope that's not too complicated.

Just one more thing for the moment... the Philip Noall that married Elizabeth Ann Care is my 3rd cousin 4 times removed, and is the 2nd great granduncle of my husband. (Don't tell him that, he gets embarrassed that we're related ;D)

Am I helping here, or just complicating matters further?

[anothernoall]

oh thankyou again! you didnt confuse things at all but helped where i had discarded Elizabeth Ninnes - when i looked again I realised i had made an error in my notes, and here i was cursing the transcriber who had made the St Nees error So Counting in Elizabeth Ninnes now makes sense where all was awry hehe

The reference to St Hilary i found on the 1861 census, though i am now thinking that this was an error as it was simply from a list of dittos with the previous family (next door) being listed as St Hilary...incedently 2 of the children who are listed on the next census page are written in as St Ives...so for now ill discard this as all evidence , i think, seems to suggest an error.

I would love if you wouldnt mind sharing the 4 generations back you have it would certainly save me a lot of time and give me an earlier starting point for more research, i do intend to head to the St Ives record office but being without transport at the moment gives me a little headache!

I am also interested in the children of these lines, one for trying to identify just how my husband is related to all the people he has been raised to beleive are distant family , but i also have a Towednack link I am trying to find. We have no idea how close this link to Towednack is, but im determined to find someone somewhere from there, no matter how close or distant! as i dont think my father in law will ever forgive me if i dispell his beleif that he has/had family there! ;D

The lines seem to diverge so much its hard to beleive this all came from 2 brothers though i think the story of yours of 2 fleeing french taxes seems a little more beleivable than ours....that we came over with William the Conqueror!!! ;D

Best wishes to you and thanks again!

[cornishmaid]

If you send me your email I can send you a Gedcom of my findings so far (if I work out how to do it). It's still a work in progress mind you, so you'll need to query everything to double check my facts.

Do you have any idea as to whom in Towednack we might be looking for

I have just been looking at Phillip Noall and Elizabeth Ann Care, and their children. I have that Philip died in Oct/Nov/Dec quarter 1884 aged 41, and that Elizabeth died in Oct/Nov/Dec quarter of 1886 aged 38. I found 6 children for them as follows:
Philip Noall, b 1869
Elizabeth Ann Noall, born and died in 1871
Matthew Care Noall, b. 1873, d. 1898 (the same year as his 2 children died. There is a newsaper report on this. He married in Tuckingmill in 1896.)
William Bryant Noall, b 1877, d. 1859.
John B Noall, b. 1879
Elizabeth Ann Noall, b. 1881, d. 1884 (the same year as her father).

I have more information and a copy of the newspaper report on Matthew Care Noall somewhere. Haven't got round to putting it on my database yet. It would seem that the children that survived were indeed left at a young age by their parents.

Will try and work on that Noall gedcom for you tomorrow.

[cornishmaid]

Sorry, typing error in my post above, the death date for William Bryant Noall, b 1877, should have been 1959 (not 1859 before he was born ).

[anothernoall]

Hi again Cornishmaid

Im afraid i dont have any information on the Towednack connection at all, only that my inlaws were told this sometime ago, i beleive by their grandfather.

It is a long held beleif of theirs that the family either came from there or had connections in some way. I have found a few Noalls living at Towednack at various times but as yet nothing that connects them with our family - at least not within fairly immediate relatives.

I am thinking i may just have to sidetrack and research further into cousins etc although i dont have a time frame to knw even what dates to start looking. Failing that it may be time to tell them a harmless fib and just say i found them

One interesting, yet maybe puzzling bit of information came from showing them who has been traced so far........... My father in law insists that Mary Cogar Noall was actually Mary COGAN Noall.

I havent loooked around t check if this could be possible yet, but seeing as her motherwent by Elizabeth NinnesNoall, EliSabeth B Noall, Elizabeth Bryant Noall- and it seems possibly by Betsy N Noall - It could be possible Mary went by both Cogar and Cogan i suppose!

Anyway i shall have a little look and see if i can see a link anyway to a Cogan....who knows what may appear!

Intriguing!

[Cornish Terrier]

You two are having great fun with this - are you not.

I do not have the time at the moment to add much but have had a very quick read of these last few notes and willget back to this subject properly as soon as I can.

However - I do note the supposed TOWEDNACK connection.

The first thought that springs to mind is that my 2xGt-grandfather was born at Towednack and married BETSEY NOALL at Lelant in 1850.

But Betsey was the daughter of William Noall and Nancy (nee KERNICK) and was born at St Ives in 1823.

It is possible part of the connection comes in here but I really need more time and information to look at it.

I can tell you that I am yet to determine the parents of WILLIAM NOALL - so that might be a possible clue.

I do know that he was married at St Ives 27th December 1810 at which time he was a 'miner'.

Nancy KERNICK (his wife) was baptised at St Ives 2nd April 1782 and was daughter of Richard Kernick and Ann (nee Penberthy).

If I can determine the parentage of 'my' William Noall then there may be some substance to what you have been told.

Must go for now.

Ian

[cornishmaid]

Hello stranger ;D. There is probably some connection between our Noalls but I haven't found it yet either. Would be good if we could find a common link. Will have another look when I have a minute.

Hi again anothernoall

I have just had another look at the original entry on Free BMD for the birth of Mary C Noall. At first glance it appeared that your father-in-law may well have had a point. The middle names looks like "Cogar", but when you look at the word Penzance (the district the birth was registered), the first "n" looks the same as the "r" in Cogar. This could mean the "n" wasn't properly formed when typed. However, the second "n" in Penzance is typed properly. So, we would need another way to prove if the middle name was Cogar or Cogan. As the birth was in 1861 a copy of the birth certificate itself would be the obvious answer.

However, I then looked at my database, where I have Mary marrying James William Henry Welch Paynter, and the St Ives Marriage Register definitely says Mary "Cogar" Noall.

Still no nearer a definite outcome on this one, but the above gives some food for though eh.

Anyway, will have to leave it there for the moment, and will get back to this as soon as I can.

[Cornish Terrier]

I will go with COGAR given (1) I do not know of the name COGAN anywhere, particularly in Cornwall, and (2) COGAR was definitely a name used in Cornwall and most of those I seem to have in my database are from St Ives.

I will have to work on this further at a later date but I am almost certain that COGAR is the correct name.

Ian

[anothernoall]

I too was convinced the name was Cogar from looking at the censuses and records, however it is my father in law (who was born , i think, maybe 3 years before Mary Cogar Noall died) who insists that the name was Cogan. This is from his memories of the family but he certainly beleives it as true

In the censuses and records i have found other Cogans recorded in St Ives, though at this point i havent had access to any original certificates to confirm whether this is the transcribers typo or not.

Failing that im wondering if at some point Cogar/Cogan became interchangeable? Maybe a bit far fetched but some of the family i have found do use name variations of kinds.

Anyway it gives me a little puzzle to try and figure out (as if i needed another at this stage! )

Thanks for your replies both Cornishmaid and Cornishterrier, i look forward to more exchanges