NICHOLAS THOMAS

[thomashistory]

Having thought that I had located the earlier branch of my family,
another researcher has indicated that he thinks that I have the wrong information and has suggested I follow the line of Nicholas Thomas who married Alice STEVENS in Morvah -
on the 15.12.1764 - they appear to have been both "of Morvah" - as from there Morvah baptisms show 5 children all baptized in Morvah with only the fathers name -Nicholas Thomas -noted.

I do not seem to be able to locate any informaiton on Alice Stevens/Stephens either.

This Nicholas may or may not have been the son of Nicholas Thomas (Morvah) who married Elizabeth Wearne (of St Just) in 1738 in Morvah with a son Nicholas born shortly after.

Children for Nicholas Thomas baptized in Morvah were


5 Apr 1766 Elizabeth private baptism (bur. 29 June 1767, I think)
8 Aug 1768 Nicholas pb
14 July 1771 John pb
3 July 1774 William (bur. 26 Dec 1775)
17 Jan 1777 William pb
17 Oct 1779 John

The notes Richard (the researcher) sent me include the following:-

Nicholas and Alice Thomas seem to have been a little up the social ladder, since it cost money to have a private baptism. Apparently it was often done if a baby was sickly and perhaps unlikely to survive. Officially the child should have been publicly baptized and received into the church later. Thus, it is possible that the child John Thomas baptized privately in 1771 was received into the church in 1779 at a public baptism.

This is all going well to this point and then nothing.

The specific child I am interested in is John Thomas c1779 who at this point may or may not be the same as our Cornish forebear.

What happened to them all??

Another note from Richard -

I then looked for burials of Nicholas and Alice in Morvah. The best I could find were both 'from St. Just', on 10 Jan 1798 and 16 Sept 1809 respectively, no ages being given sadly. The Alice Thomas who died in Morvah in 1829 was too young to be the right person.

It appears to me that there was a cross over between Morvah and St Just and I am hoping that someone out there may have the answers as to where I go next??

cheers
Meredith

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Meredith and welcome to Penwith Genealogy.

The Thomas families are never easy but that does not mean that answers cannot be found. Just have to dig a little harder sometimes.

I cannot guarantee to find the answers for you but we can certainly 'have a crack'. But to do that we are going to require a little more information.

To all intents and purposes the information you have displayed might just as well be a portrait haning on a wall with nothing to say who it belongs to.

Two things you have told us:-

1. John Thomas might or might not be your ancestor
2. Someone else says you should look at the family of Nicholas and Alice instead of the one you were considering

Some of the things you have not told us:-

1. Why you think this John might (or might not) belong to your family
2. How you connect to 'a John Thomas' who might be this one
3. Who the other family is that you were considering but who you have been told might be wrong
4. Why the other family, whoever they are, might be wrong

All very well to sit an unlabelled bottle of water in front of me .................... pointless asking me to identify the River it came from though.

CT

[thomashistory]

Hello again
My original tree with parents known was John Thomas and Elizabeth Eddy - married 11 Aug 1793 St Just in Penwith - possible 9 children - I say possible as the marriage of John Thomas to Elizabeth Wallis came into the middle of the children so the later ones except for Thomas Eddy Thomas are still queried.

It was originally assumed that the parents of this John were John Thomas and Alice Davy nee Trezise which still may be the case and cannot at this time be ruled out all together - however

Looking at this family without parents for John and not knowing how well this family kept to the naming patterns, the children were as follows -

1st child - daughter - Elizabeth 1793 - named after child's mother or unknown fathers mother??

2nd child - daughter - Alice 1795 - named after (it was previously thought that she was named after her grandmother??)

3rd child - son - Nicholas 1798 - named after ??

4th child - daughter Mary 1800 - died - named after Mothers Mother??

5th child - daughter Mary 1803 - replaced above child.

Possible 6th and 7th child - son John - born 1806 died 27 Feb 1807 & 1808 - named after Father?

8th child - son Thomas Eddy - named after Mothers Father with her surname as second name - believed belonged to this family as this name was used again in next generation

Possible 9th child - son William - named after ? - we believe that this child could belong to this family as in every generation thereafter there has always been a William included in every family.

According to naming patterns, the first male child should have been named after Fathers Father or secondly the Father. If Johns parents were John Thomas and Alice then why was the first son named Nicholas as there was no Nicholas known in either father or mothers family? I also noted that the name John did not appear till much later down which again points to the fact that the fathers father may not have been John.

There is however, gaps in the children and it is possible that an earlier child called John may have been born and registered in the fathers name only somewhere else and died but as all the known children were registered in St Just, this does not seem likely.

The second name that now has to be queried is Alice. Once again there is no Alice which appears in the Mothers side so we can only assume that it has come from the Fathers - Fathers Mother???

The only other possibility is that somehow the Father John was baptized as say "Nicholas John" or "John Nicholas" Thomas ??

It is these facts which have led us to taking another look at Johns parents which, given the above children's names, and according to naming patterns would be Nicholas Thomas and either Elizabeth or Alice.



There is no further record of the name Alice being used by either family of Nicholas jnr or Thomas Eddy Thomas. I have not located the John Thomas jnr named above so am unsure of his details or family and it was not used in Marys family.
This is were the research gets confusing. There are Nicholas Thomas marriages noted in Morvah, Gulval, Zennor, Madron/Penzance, St Kew, St Ives and St Clear, St Just & Breage with deaths also registed in the same places. I have attempted to follow up marriages which were registered in the above but a lot don't seem to either have children registered with IGI or OPC or children with just fathers name listed in another area.

It does not help that very few Thomas's of the later generation had wills and most appear to have been miners.

There are however various death registrations for Nicholas Thomas and a few for Alice so I am now at a standstill and any light you can throw on this mystery would be greatly appreciated


cheers
Meredith

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Meredith - it does not seem to get much easier but at least I now know just what you are looking at.

The specific child I am interested in is John Thomas c1779 who at this point may or may not be the same as our Cornish forebear.

I need to clarify just why you think this particular John Thomas may be your ancestor.

If it is because your John was born around 1779 and this is a close match then I would think you may have a much bigger problem.

John Thomas and Elizabeth Eddy were married in 1793 at which time the above John would have been only around age 14!

Thus, it is possible that the child John Thomas baptized privately in 1771 was received into the church in 1779 at a public baptism.

Yes, it is possible BUT ..........................
Siblings Elizabeth (1766), Nicholas (1768) and William (1777) were all baptised privately yet there does not appear to be another Public baptism for any of them.

I think it would be strange that of these four children only John might have been publicly baptised ......... and then eight years after he was born!

On the other hand is the fact that I am yet to be able to find a burial for John bp. 1771.

So, let us first establish a direct line back to your ancestor John Thomas.

Start with your grandfather or great-grandfather if possible and show me the direct line back to John please.
That will give me a much clearer picture and I should hope to be able to see from that whether you are connecting with the right family.

I am also having difficulty finding a burial for the elder John Thomas (husband of Elizabeth Eddy).

When their youngest son William was baptised in 1813 the family was residing at Carrarrack, St Just.
In 1841 a John Thomas, age 70, with wife Elizabeth, age 60, and son John age 30 were still living at Carrarack and I believe this is probably them.

Age 60 for Elizabeth would be blatantly wrong of course!

Elizabeth Thomas of Carrarrack age 69 was buried 1st December 1841 at St Just

AHA!! - I think I may have just found an answer to at least part of the problem!

With the problems surrounding John Thomas that I have outlined above I finally got around to thinking about parents! And it suddenly occurred to me to look at other possible marriages!

ET VOILA

Nicholas Thomas of Morvah married Mary Matthews of Morvah 6th June 1778 at Morvah

Therefore it is probable that these are the parents of John Thomas bp. 1779 at Morvah.

And now things begin to make a little more sense.
If, as you have done, we look at the names of the children of John and Elizabeth Thomas again it does become more clear.

Elizabeth - named for her mother
Alice - named for her paternal grandmother
Nicholas - named for his paternal grandfather
Mary (x2) - unknown but possibly for her maternal grandmother or an aunt
John - obviously named for his father
Thomas Eddy - possibly maternal grandfather or an uncle
William - possibly for an uncle

Based on this I would now suggest that Nicholas and Alice are the more likely to be parents of your John Thomas.

But I would still like you to show me the links back to John so that I can try to make sure you are not following any dubious garden paths.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Meredith - I cannot help with the origins of Alice Stevens/Stephens yet but I think I might now know the identity of Elizabeth Eddy.

Elizabeth daughter of Thomas and Mary Eddy bp. 5th April 1773 at St Just

Thomas Eddy married Mary Grills 9th May 1762 at St Just

CT

[thomashistory]

Hello and thank you for all your assistance.

As to our later tree, this has been verified fairly well.
Nicholas Thomas 04 Mar 1798 son of John Thomas and Elizabeth Eddy married his second cousin Grace Grills /Grylls 30 Aug 1829 in St Just and immigrated with the younger members of the family to Victoria , the older ones had already immigrated so all that is sorted. Our family seemed to have the knack of marrying cousins so it sometimes makes it easier to trace them. The Grills/Grylls line has been well documented, the current researcher Richard Grylls being the one to raise the concerns regarding the elder Johns parentage. The marriage of John Thomas and Elizabeth Eddy has been confirmed as she was also from the Grills/Grylls line via her mother so this is also confirmed through the Grills/Grylls research and records.

From the line of Nicholas Thomas and Grace Grylls, one I am still missing is the son John Thomas - 19 Jul 1840.


Like you I believed that the Census listing for John Thomas and Elizabeth with son John may well be ours but there were a lot of John & Elizabeth marriages with sons John and as the 1841 Census does not tell us where they were born, it could well be that they were someone else who may have moved into the area.

I noted another marriage for John Thomas and Elizabeth in Gulval area with some children of the same names and ages so it gets confusing.

Although I have not ruled it out, it seems that maybe it casts doubts on the ages of the two recorded as being ours. We do know Elisabeth's baptismal date even tho we don't know about Johns.

John Jr was located in 1851 with his sister Mary Grylls nee Thomas - you guessed it - another related marriage, and was noted as a visitor. After that I lost him and don't know if he immigrated or stayed in Cornwall. There was a note in his nephews diary re Uncle John, brother of his father (Nicholas) who died 10 Jul 1873 but did not say where.

Another child I have failed to locate was their first born daughter - Elizabeth 04 Nov 1793 st just. There are other researchers who claim that she married Richard Eddy, son of John Eddy and Mary Grose on the 23 Dec 1817 in St Just. I have not connected this up on my tree at this time as I have no proof that it was her. A death has been given as

Burials - Details of record ID 929213:
Parish: Just in Penwith, St., Wesleyan
Date: 17-Apr 1867
Name: Elizabeth EDDY
Residence: Carnyorth, St Just
Transcriber: Margaret Owens

but without an age, again there is no proof.

Now back to our problem. As I have stated above, I have doubts as to the 1841 Census. We do not have any records which shows that the last William - born in Carrack belonged to our John and Elizabeth.

The other marriage in the St Just area was John Thomas and Elizabeth Wallis. The only details I have on this marriage have come from other researchers who state that John was baptized
31 Oct 1779 St Just and was the son of Thomas Thomas and Loveday Trembath who married on the 06 Jul 1805 in St Just. Elizabeth was baptised 13 Apr 1783 and daughter of Robert Wallis and Margaret Edwards

As to the children, the ones up to 1805 were ours being Elizabeth, Alice, Nicholas, Mary, Mary
query then is John, John, Thomas Eddy Thomas, William and
Thomas Thomas and loveday all swinging. The only ones I believe fairly certain that we can claim are one of the Johns, Thomas Eddy Thomas and maybe William.
There was a William in every family in every generation after this and if the parentage is correct for the other John Thomas, there were no Williams noted as his siblings nor any in the Wallis side either.

As to the two John Thomas's baptized 14.11.1806, and 14 Feb 1808 - there appears to be a death noted??

BURIALS - DETAILS OF RECORD ID 901978:
Parish: Just in Penwith, St.
Date: 27-Feb 1807
Name: John THOMAS
Age: child
Transcriber: Brian Stephen
which of course may or may not be the above child.

Margaret Owen confirmed John the son of John and Elizabeth (Eddy) was baptized 14.11.1806 but I don't know about the second one. Another problem is that the John shown with his "sister" in 1851 seems to have been born around 1810??? The OPC does not show St Just for this time so I have only been able to obtain information from IGI.

Quite a few snags here and after trawling through the Morvah, Madron, Gulval and other various registers for the last few days I'm in a total head spin.

I hope you can make sense of these ramblings and I would so appreciate the cold light of logic to be applied but I seem to have lost mine.

Cheers
Meredith

[Cornish Terrier]

Meredith - I have read your latest but at this hour it is not a good time to be trying to think too hard about it!

All being well I will have a good re-read tomorrow when I get home and then try to work through it gradually to see if I can help sort out some more of the puzzle.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Meredith - I hav been trying to work through a little of this while waiting for downloads of other records to complete. I will have to do more but ......

Another child I have failed to locate was their first born daughter - Elizabeth 04 Nov 1793 st just. There are other researchers who claim that she married Richard Eddy, son of John Eddy and Mary Grose on the 23 Dec 1817 in St Just. I have not connected this up on my tree at this time as I have no proof that it was her.

My records indicate that the wife of Richard Eddy was a little older than your Elizabeth Thomas. Ages in the Census are very often inaccurate so I am using it only as a guide while I explore other options.
The 1851 Census indicates that Elizabeth Eddy was born around 1791 or 1792 so there really is only 1 or 2 years difference but it is certainly enough to warrant the further investigation.

Looking at possible marriages at St Just and there is one that has 'stood up and poked me in the eye'!

25th March 1815 St Just in Penwith by Banns
James Oats, bachelor
Elizabeth Thomas, spinster
Witnesses - Nicholas Thomas, Thomas Tregear

I know that Nicholas is not exactly a rare name in the Thomas family but the fact that 'a' Nicholas Thomas witnessed the marriage is interesting.

As to the children, the ones up to 1805 were ours being Elizabeth, Alice, Nicholas, Mary, Mary
query then is John, John, Thomas Eddy Thomas, William and
Thomas Thomas and loveday all swinging. The only ones I believe fairly certain that we can claim are one of the Johns, Thomas Eddy Thomas and maybe William.

Given that Nicholas and Grace named a son Thomas Eddy Thomas and baptised him in 1843 is very suggestive given that there is a burial at St Just 23rd September 1842 for Thomas Eddy Thomas of Churchtown age 34.

I think you will find that Nicholas named his son after his recently deceased brother.

Now back to our problem. As I have stated above, I have doubts as to the 1841 Census. We do not have any records which shows that the last William - born in Carrack belonged to our John and Elizabeth.

On the contrary - I mentioned in an earlier note about John and Elizabeth with son John living at Carrarrack and I also mentioned that Elizabeth Thomas of Carrarrack age 69 was buried at St Just 1st December 1841.

Remember that ages in Census and Burial records are often unreliable I consider this to be a very close match to the daughter of Thomas and Mary (Grills) Eddy.
That then is sufficient evidence to suggest the very strong possibility that William was indeed their son.

Another problem is that the John shown with his "sister" in 1851 seems to have been born around 1810???

Just because the maiden name of Mary Grills was 'Thomas' it does not necessarily follow that the 'visiting' John Thomas was her brother. He may well have been just a cousin.
On the other hand it is not unusual for the age to be either recorded incorrectly by the enumerator or actually given incorrectly by the informant.
The only other John Thomas I can find at St Just around 1809 or 1810 I think was the son of Martin and Phillis Thomas. (But then I really only skimmed through the records on that one. )

CT