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Post by nannysmith on Oct 25, 2011 4:43:14 GMT -5
Back in 1981 a relative (now deceased) visited Cornwall RO and produced a book on the family. Our ancestor Alexander Briant bapt 23/6/1775 at St. Hilary married Grace Rodda 26/1/1806 Perranuthnoe. He died 16 Sep 1841 of Goldsithney buried Perranuthnoe. Grace baptised 12/12/1779 Perranuthnoe buried 6 Jan 1850 of Goldsithney buried Perranuthoe. The siblings Bill attached to Alexander were Daniel Brian 6/9/1767, Joseph (a family name) Briant 18/7/1770 , Jane Brian 18/12/1773. Catherine Bryan baptised 9/5/1780 buried 11/4/1781 all at St. Hilary. The only info on the other siblings was married 22/8/1802 St. Hilary Jane Bryant to John Berriman. CT has her burial and the age doesn't fit with the baptismal date I have. I am hoping that you do have a baptism that does fit so that would confirm that the age is correct? What I am extremely interested in, is sorting out who Alexander's parents are. Unfortunately their names are John and Mary Bill Lemin wrote in his book, that John was a miner. All at St. Hilary: born 16/2/1723, married 1766 and died 1/2/1784. There is a marriage at Germoe to Mary Williams but I hesitate to include it. They had a child Joseph at Germoe and then at St. Hilary a few years later another Joseph. I realise the first Joseph could have died ... There is a burial of Mary 1807 62 years. I feel John's parents could be John Bryant who married 1717/18 Gulval to Margaret Rodda. When Margaret died 1744 and is buried at Gulvall it said residence St. Hilary - wife of John. Any thoughts on my meandering or suggestions really appreciated.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 25, 2011 7:10:54 GMT -5
Hmmmm! (Keeping in mind that Jane and Jenifer were interchangeable names) Jenifer daughter of Arthur and Elizabeth Bryant bp. 22nd September 1776 Lelant The source for this is the Lelant Parish Register BUT ................... I can find no other children for Arthur and Elizabeth, I can find NO MARRIAGE for Arthur and Elizabeth and I can find no record of a baptism in Cornwall for an Arthur Bryant/Briant! the baptism is clear and it certainly matches with the burial of Jenifer/Jane Berriman but there is a task ahead to work out exactly who she belongs to! On a more positive note is the following entry from the Gulval Parish Register:- John Brian of ye Parish of St Hilary & Margaret Rodda of this Parish were Marryed Jan: 17th 1718 That would suggest that you might just be right about the parents of John Bryant. CT
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Post by nannysmith on Oct 25, 2011 15:15:06 GMT -5
The only other info I have is, that a descendant of Jane and John Berriman, referred to her as formerly Jane Bryant of St. Hilary. Alexander had two daughters Grace and Jane, this Jane never married and eventually died at Goldsithney. Love the spellig of ye marriage. Wish I could find more about the John Bryant and Mary Williams marriage. More work ahead ... on a brighter note I'm sure it warrants a further visit to Cornwall .... what hardship lol
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 25, 2011 16:58:09 GMT -5
This looks a little like the entry in FamilySearch except that FamilySearch shows the event as 1755 and the place as Gwinear. Neither show an actual date. This is another example of FamilySearch displaying information that is totally misleading and it is the second example I have seen tonight. If you check Phillimore there is no such event recorded at Gwinear. (Phillimore does have omissions and errors as well but ...) Earlier tonight I had the problem of a marriage for John Gillis and Grace Harvey. FamilySearch showed that the marriage occurred at Ludgvan 21st April 1782. I checked the Ludgvan Parish Register and found that the last Banns were published 21st April 1782 but there was no marriage at Ludgvan. The marriage actually took place at St Erth 28th April 1782. In the case of John Bryant and Mary Williams I don't know where the Banns were published but I can show the details of the marriage:- John Bryant, blacksmith of Gwinear married Mary Williams of Germo by Banns 13th September 1755 at Germoe Witnesses - Edward Hocken, Simon PentecostJohn Bryant was 'of Gwinear' but the marriage certainly did not take place there. CT
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Post by nannysmith on Oct 26, 2011 4:33:11 GMT -5
CT, Bill wrote that John Bryant and Mary married at St. Hilary and 1866 and I think he was guessing. Calculated from the date of baptism of Daniel Brian 6/9/1767 at St. Hilary (last child Catherine 1780). Others have suggested the John Bryant and Mary Williams marriage in 1755. Do you think it likely, seeing as we can't find another marriage? Is a blacksmith of Gwinear, likely to become a miner at St. Hilary?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 26, 2011 7:27:54 GMT -5
If John, as is likely, was a blacksmith in a mine then he may have given his occupation as 'miner'. The term 'blacksmith' might have been semi-true but more a matter of status when he married. You could hypothesise forever on things like this without ever finding an answer but the best thing to do is to determine for certain whether we have the right marriage. I can find no children at Gwinear for John Bryant so the fact that he was 'of Gwinear' when he married might merely have meant that he had resided there for some time. It may well be that he was actually from Germoe or St HIlary originally. But if this is the marriage you are looking for then there is around 10 years between the marriage and the arrival of the first child in your records. And that means that there are probably children elsewhere. Interesting to note that a John Bryant started baptising children at Camborne from 1756:- Richard son of John Bryant bp. 15th August 1756 Katherine daughter of John Briant bp. 21st May 1758 William son of John Bryant bp. 23rd March 1761 Mary daughter of John Bryant bp. 10th March 1765 I have checked as far as 1771 and there are no further children for John Bryant at Camborne. And just for the obligatory spanner there was a John Bryant married Mary Prince at Illogan in 1752 and only three children appear for them at Illogan:- Mary bp. 28th October 1752 Elizabeth bp. 1st January 1755 John bp. 12th June 1757 And they slot right in very neatly to the list above for Camborne. Best do some more checking and see if you can find any other children elsewhere to John and Mary between 1755 and 1766. It is going to be a matter of elimination I am thinking. CT
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Post by nannysmith on Oct 27, 2011 6:55:22 GMT -5
Many thanks for all your help CT that information is much more than anyone else has been able to find. I'll have to put my thinking cap on here and hope it fits. It would be interestig to see if the Katherine born in 1758 is still alive in 1780, when Catherine is born in St. Hilary. The name Richard Bryant is interesting too. I seem to recall that there was an early will for Richard Bryant. Wills aren't something that Bryants seemed to make unfortunately. Jane Berriman had a daughter Jennifer and also a son Richard Bryant Berriman (more confusion).
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 28, 2011 2:36:10 GMT -5
I am going to throw another possibility into the mix for you. I think it is worth considering that John Bryant may perhaps have married twice - first at Illogan to Mary Prince and then at Germoe to Mary Williams. So far I have been able to find no other marriages to account for the children I listed in a previous post although that search should continue. But it is also notable how the baptisms of the two groups of children fit so neatly together:- Mary bp. 28th October 1752 Elizabeth bp. 1st January 1755 Richard son of John Bryant bp. 15th August 1756 John bp. 12th June 1757 Katherine daughter of John Briant bp. 21st May 1758 William son of John Bryant bp. 23rd March 1761 Mary daughter of John Bryant bp. 10th March 1765 And now let's look at the same list but with the two marriages included as well as the children you have quoted:- John Bryant married Mary Prince 5th June 1752 Illogan Mary bp. 28th October 1752 Illogan Elizabeth bp. 1st January 1755 Illogan John Bryant, blacksmith of Gwinear married Mary Williams of Germo by Banns 13th September 1755 at Germoe Witnesses - Edward Hocken, Simon Pentecost Richard son of John Bryant bp. 15th August 1756 Camborne John bp. 12th June 1757 Illogan Katherine daughter of John Briant bp. 21st May 1758 Camborne William son of John Bryant bp. 23rd March 1761 Camborne Mary daughter of John Bryant bp. 10th March 1765 Camborne Daniel son of John and Mary Brian bp. 6th September 1767 St Hilary Joseph son of John and Mary Briant bp. 15th May 1769 Germoe Joseph son of John and Mary Briant bp. 18th July 1770 St Hilary Jane daughter of John and Mary Brian bp. 17th October 1773 St Hilary Alexander son of John and Mary Briant bp. 23rd June 1775 St Hilary Catherine daughter of John and Mary Bryan bp. 7th May 1780 St Hilary That now makes for some interesting reading. In some Breaking News! I have just found another family of John and Mary Briant! John Briant married Mary Nichols 22nd October 1757 at Luxulyan There is no need to panic however as they baptised seven children at Luxulyan from 1758 to 1774. Therefore there is no impact on any of the above. It would be very handy to have access to the Illogan records to see if there was any additional information attached to the 1752 Marriage or the baptisms of the three children there. Those records would also be useful to see if there might be a burial at Illogan for Mary Bryant. But, as you can see, with the information laid out together the option is certainly there for a second marriage to have occurred. A little more sleuthing might be in order now I think! CT
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Post by nannysmith on Oct 28, 2011 6:59:01 GMT -5
Thanks, !! I think lol ;D If I can find some deaths I would feel more certain, eg of Joseph. Apart from going to Cornwall (although I am planning that too ;D) Must admit though that I'd prefer to spend my time going to family places etc in Cornwall, rather than spending days looking at records if I can do that here, but if needs be. I wonder if I could find more about Mary Prince and Mary Williams, if there might be some clues there. Where would you think are the best places to look. Should I hire LDS films or approach OPC? I can also access Ancestry at the Library. As yet I am dithering about taking out a Genealogical sub. Although I might give myself a Christmas present with FMP if I thought it would give me answers.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 28, 2011 7:34:50 GMT -5
These are only possibilities that should be explored and sometimes putting the information together likes this allows you to see things differently. In this case it all 'looks' like it could be the same man with two marriages but more information is required. Joseph son of John and Mary Briant was buried 26th July 1769 at Germoe (source Germoe Parish Register) That takes care of him! I have copies of a lot of the records needed for these families but, unfortunately, not all. For Mary Prince we need Illogan Registers and the only place I know that would have them all is the CRO. FamilySearch have just (this morning) released the first volume covering 1539-1699 but that is just too early for Mary Prince. I have copies of the CFHS Indexes for Marriages and Baptisms for Illogan but unfortunately not the burials for that period and I think the OPC is probably in the same boat. I also have the Germoe records covered as well as Perranuthnoe but the other areas that we need I only have transcripts at the moment. I don't know if the LDS have the films for Illogan or not. They are releasing items through the FamilySearch site (original images) that do not appear in their online Catalog which is very curious. For the moment I think you could work through the OPC site and this board to find a lot of your information. You could investigate the LDS to see if they have the films you want but I don't see the point in spending money if you don't have to! How long before you are thinking of going back to Cornwall? The answer to that might dictate your best options. But also keep an eye on FamilySearch. Back in June they made a lot of Cornwall PRs available online again although most were later Marriages with a scattering of Baptisms and Burials. Last week they released more which were largely Banns, and Burials and then this morning another large batch was released. In this lot this morning there are a number of early records including that first volume for Illogan. New releases so close together might indicate that more records will be made available sooner rather than later. So just keep a beady eye open and see what they do and you might yet get to enjoy the outdoors of Cornwall rather than the indoors of the CRO. Mind you, I know a few indoors over there that are pretty good. The Tinners Arms at Zennor, The Logan Rock Inn at St Levan, The Wink at Lamorna ........................................ CT
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Post by nannysmith on Oct 29, 2011 1:25:25 GMT -5
Thanks CT ;D I am rightly chuffed at what you have found. I visited Cornwall in 2009 and 2010, planning to go back in 2012. At the moment I am looking at Spring. I'll plan to go for two months tracing family etc in UK and Ireland. I don't want to get caught up in the Olympic squeeze .. Like the sound of the places you mentioned .. I read somewhere that the pub at Perranuthnoe is supposed to be the oldest in Cornwall. So looking forward to checking it out. In my Bryant photobook I have written a story of the children of Alexander and Grace using the Census records. I find it fascinating that in 1871 Miss Grace (1808) is again a domestic servant at the grocery shop in Goldsithney of Elizabeth Gundry, who also had a lodger the Wesleyan minister. Miss Jane (1827) is a domestic servant to Elizabeth Francis a licenced victualler at Church Town at the Victoria Inn. The family were devout Methodists, so I quite surprised to see where Jane was. I must Google and see if the Victoria Inn is still in existence and visit it if possible. I went to the NSW FH State Conference recently and Paul Parton from Family Search spoke of continuing to check their database as many things were coming online all the time. I will endeavour to keep my eye on what is happening. I'll also make contact with relevant OPCs. I hope that I haven't exhausted your kindness ;D Finding Joseph's death really makes me feel like the Mary Williams marriage is right. I think Mary Prince fits well. Finding more of those Illogan records will be the clincher. I really felt that John and Mary were untraceable, so I can't tell you how thrilled I am that the brick walls seems to be cracking. Cheers.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 29, 2011 4:24:47 GMT -5
Always a pleasure to be of help and it is generally fairly difficult to exhaust the friendship here. Illogan is certainly the Parish to look at I think. Assuming for the moment that Illogan was the home Parish of Mary Prince then I would expect she would be buried there if, as looks possible, she left John Bryant a widower around 1755. If a burial can be found for her then hopefully it would say she was 'wife of John Bryant' and that would then support the scenario no end. I keep a constant lookout for new material so should the relevant Illogan registers become available then I will be looking to add them to my list of resources. In the meantime I think it may be worth your while to try and trace each of the children in the list. By doing that you might also find something that would help prove the scenario one way or another. The Victoria Inn - I don't recall that one ................. but then I did visit more than a couple! The Star, The Dolphin and The Swordfish at Newlyn, The Pirate Inn at Alverton, The King's Arms at Paul, The Bucket of Blood at Halsetown, The Mermaid, The Atlantic Inn, The Bishop and Wolf on St Mary's, Isles of Scilly, The Turk's Head on St Agnes, Isles of Scilly ............ The New Inn on Tresco, Isles of Scilly, The Lifeboat Inn and The Sloop at St Ives, The Gurnard's Head near Zennor ............................ Not that I drink, mind! ;D CT
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Post by nannysmith on Oct 29, 2011 4:55:34 GMT -5
lol ... I can see your visits to the locals were in the interest of .... ummmmmmmmh ... history !!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 30, 2011 3:54:37 GMT -5
Just sampling the culture!
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Post by nannysmith on Nov 4, 2011 6:41:37 GMT -5
Hi CT, I hope you didn't to sample too much culture aka Melbourne Cup ;D I have just emailed the OPC at Illogan re the 1750s records, so will now wait patiently When I was Googling Illogan parish records I found chat on Ancestry back in 2009. A person said that they had ordered the Illogan Parish Registers at a LDS Centre and received notice to say the film/fichewas permanently restricted. Went on to say that these records were transcribed by WL Bawden at some point. Someone else went on to say that the Bawden transcripts were held near them in Cornwall. Baptisms covered 1539-1858, Marriages 1601-1837 and Burials 1540-1845. I have never heard of these transcriptions and wondered whether they might be worth pursuing? Cheers.
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