Vials Richards Wills Billing Tregenza

[cornish]

Hi All
I got as far as Abraham Vial Married Mary DAvy in 1758, I found Robert Vial and Ananais Vial in Crowan Parish Registers, could Robert be Abrahams father there cant be that many Abrahams in Crowan, I am new to the genealogy, but I have found quite a few branches of mamily tree.

I am stuck on Celia Richards who married William Pope in 1844 in Sithney, I want to trace back my maternal line, I have their marriage certificate.

The other surnames I have if anyone has a match with them are

Wills, I know that that is a very common name, John son of Thomas b. 1801 and Ann b.1806

Billing my paternal grandmother b.1891, her maiden name Tregenza her mother annie J Tregenza b.1873!

[Cornish Terrier]

Are all these people from the Crowan/Sithney area.

Please supply further information, if available, and we will see what we can do to help.

Ian

[cornish]

Yes they are from the Crowan and Sithney area, the Vial's from Crowan.
Celia Richards, Breage, William Pope Sithney, they were both born 1822, married 1844 Sithney.

[londoner]

Celia Richards & William Pope

Like you I am having trouble finding Celia. However in 1861 Elizabeth Richards (1821 sister – in – law) is staying with William & Celia.(she is also there in 1851 but aged transcribed as 39)
The Cornwall opc marriage database site gives Celia’s father as Thomas Richards, Miner. In Breage in 1841 the most likely candidate to be Thomas is at Wheal Vor,
Thomas Engineer & Mine Agent 55
Jane 45
John 20
Elizabeth 15 (bap 11 Jan 1824 Breage)
William 14 (bap 12 Nov 1826 “ )
Jane 11 (bap 24 May 1830 “ )
James 7 (bap James Eade Richards 25 May 1834)
Mary Beaguholes 89

By 1851 Thomas has left the mine and is Farming 14 Acres at Pellar Cottage, Breage
Thomas 66
Jane 58
William 20
James Eade 17 (m Phillipa Eade in 1860)
Thomas 11 grandson (probably son of Thomas & Elizabeth of Trew)

From this I assume that Thomas & Jane were not at Breage at the time of their elder children’s (Thomas, Celia & John) birth.
The only baptism in the right time frame for Celia I have found (only by internet search there may well be something in Parishes that are not online) is:
Cecilia Richards d/o Thomas & Jane in 1823 at Lostwithiel
There is a marriage of Thomas to Jane Williams also at Lostwithiel

Interestingly the BMD has Cecilia Pope death 1871 (born c 1824) Helston Q4 5c 352) is this Celia? If so the baptism could be right but Lostwithiel is a long way (in Cornish Terms) from Breage.

[cornish]

Hello, Thanks for your reply, I have the 1861 abd 1851 census, for Celia, I looked on the Cornwall OPC for Celias father, but could'nt find it, first time used that site.
You say Thomas is the name of Celia's father I have her marriage certificate, but I can't read her father's christian name, it could be Thomas.
I supose Thomas from Breage 1841 aged 55 is a likely candidate.

I wonder who where I can find out what his Christian name is!!.

The BMD for Cecilia 1824 could be Celia, 47 years is early though.

[Cornish Terrier]

Interesting comments being offered here and I hope this continues as it will ultimately result in a solution to the dilemma.

Do not be overly concerned with the Lostwithiel/Breage connection as it is quite possible that the information is correct.

Much may depend on occupations but it was not unusual for people from the West of Cornwall to be labelled as 'sojourner' and, therefore, working far from their homes.

This could include areas outside Cornwall.

So it is therefore possible that a man working away from home for some time might meet with, and ultimately marry, a girl from a far distant Parish.

Please keep your mind open to all possibilities.

Ian

[cornish]

How and where can I decipher the christian name I have, for Celia's father on her marriage certificate.

I could find out more if I could read the name. any ideas. I dont think its a Thomas because a Thomas is written elsewhere and it dos'nt look the same.

[Cornish Terrier]

Cornish - is it possible you could scan the certificate and send it as an attachment via email.

I 'might' be able to decipher it for you. (but no absolute promise)

If you can do this I would suggest you do it immediately as I am about to lose ISP connection again for a while.

Ian

[cornish]

Hi cornish Terrier,

I have not seen this reply untill today, but I went straight into town to send attachment by email,
of Celia and William's marriage certificate, from the Library in Truro.

[Cornish Terrier]

Thanks Cornish - received the Certificate ok and believe I read it all.

I admit that the name of Celia's father is the most difficult on the document but I am almost certain it is THOMAS.

The first letter, when viewed up cose, compares favourable the the letter 'T' found in the section where William and Celia signed "THE mark of ..... etc."

The last two letters are definitely 'AS'.

The difficulty there was the big flourish which started the capital 'R' in the surname.

I am sure you can safely go with 'Thomas'.

The Lostwithiel baptism for Cecilia Richards is worth keeping in mind as there was only one baptism for a child of THOMAS and ANN occurring there according to IGI.

There was, however, children being baptised to WILLIAM and ANN.

It is 'possible' that 'Thomas' name was actually 'William' and that it has been entered in the Register incorrectly or transcribed incorrectly.

Following is a list of RICHARDS children baptised at Sithney that you might find interesting:-

CELIA bp. 16th May 1813 (bn. 6th May) d/o John and Anne of Nantrizack, miner

James Matthew bp. 28th January 1814 (bn. 17th January) s/o John and Anne of Porthleven, mason

Henry bp. 6th August 1815 (bn. 21st April) s/o Thomas and Anne of Melengoos, husbandman

Francis bp. 9th June 1816 (bn. 27th May) s/o John and Anne of Codna Downs, miner

Thomas Matthews bp. 24th March 1816 (bn. 25th February) s/o John and Anne of Porthleven, mason

* There are more children to both Johns but I will ignore them for now. *

Grace bp. 18th April 1824 d/o Thomas and Anne of Wheal Vor, Breage, miner

Richard bp. 2nd October 1825, aged 7, s/o Thomas and Anne of Melangoos

Baptisms at Breage that 'may' be of interest:-

John bp. 25th April 1802 s/o Thomas and Ann
Samuel bp. 13th January 1808 s/o Thomas and Ann
William bp. 6th January 1805 s/o Thomas and Ann

These last may be a bit early but still may be of use.

It is interesting that there was a CELIA baptised at Sithney in 1813 and suggests the possibility that her father and Thomas may be related, perhaps brothers, with the having been used in earlier generations.

If the Thomas and Anne at Sithney are the parents of all the children listed to those names then it would seem the family moved a little.

This then suggests the possibility that the girl baptised at Lostwithiel just might belong.

But we need more information and I will try a little more searching.

[Cornish Terrier]

I have not been able to locate Celia in the 1841 Census but have now located her in 1851.

The Elizabeth Richards, 39, is, as I read it, a 'servant' rather than 'sister-in-law' so may not be related at all.

Interesting that Celia's birthplace is given as Breage in 1861.

The Elizabeth Richards appearing in the 1851 Census with William Pope 'may' be the following:-

Elizabeth bp. 1st August 1813 (bn. 7th June) d/o William and Grace of Lower Prospidnick, tinker

The Elizabeth appearing as 'sister-in-law' in 1861 would be:-

Betsy bp. 23rd July 1820 d/o Thomas and Elizabeth of Helston, Innkeeper

Both events occurred at Sithney.

AHA! - Believe I have just found Celia in 1841. ;D

Indexed as LALIA!

Sithney Church Town

Martha Tippet, 70, Ag. Lab.
Elizabeth Richards, 20, Ag. Lab.
Lalia Richard, 20, Ag. Lab.

These are the only persons enumerated for the property.

I actually think the name looks more like TALIA or, more probably, TELIA but I am sure this is your CELIA with her age rounded up.

Once I viewed the 1861 Census where Elizabeth was listed as 'sister-in-law' I decided to check on a baptism for her.

Based on her age in 1861 I then decided to search on her name using a birth date of 1820 +/- 2.

And this is what I turned up.

I cannot guarantee that Thomas Richards, Innkeeper, is the father of these girls given the following events at Helston:-

Prephania bp. 1st January 1822 d/o Thomas and Elizabeth of Helston, Innkeeper

That would seem to be the best I can do for now but we at least have a little more.
John TREVELLA Richards bp. 10th July 1825 s/o Thomas and Elizabeth of Helston, Innkeeper *** Most Interesting ***

John TREVELAK Richards bp. 25th July 1831 s/o Thomas and Elizabeth of Helston, Innkeeper

[mickey]

I think everyone in the forum is right, that Thomas and Ann RICHARDS are Celia’s parents.



I used the parish register website to figure out who Ann’s mother was.



I did this by searching for Thomas and Ann’s marriage. Cornish, you need to order this marriage certificate.



They married in Breage in 1812 and her maiden name was ROGERS. We can estimate she was therefore born about 1792, if she was 20 when she married. Looking for baptisms of Ann Rogers, there are the following which COULD be her:



05-Apr 1789
Breage
Ann
ROGERS

04-Aug 1793
Breage
Ann
ROGERS

13-Apr 1794
Breage
Ann
ROGERS




This is why you need the marriage certificate, as it will say WHEN she was born.



Tracing back from here isn’t as accurate, but if she was born in 1789, then her parents were John and Ann ROGERS. How do I know this? I searched for their marriage, and it says John Rogers married Ann RULE in 1785.



Similarly, IF she was born in 1793, her parents are John and Mary. John ROGERS married Mary RICHARDS in 1792.



IF she was born in 1794, her parents are John and Elizabeth. John ROGERS married Elizabeth MICHELL in 1792.



So the possible grandmothers of Celia RICHARDS are Ann RULE, Mary RICHARDS or Elizabeth MICHELL.

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Mickey and Welcome to the Forum.

And thank you for your input to this problem - it is most welcome and useful.

I need to get some sleep so hope to 'see' you on the Forum with some more input/queries.

Will help as best I can.

[cornish]

Wow thanks for all this information something more for me to go on. Cornish Terrier, I did'nt see the T in the mark of, it does look like a T, and so it is Thomas and Ann. And you found a Trewalla!

Thanks to Mickey, who follows on with the Thomas and Ann, and Ann's maiden name.! Will find Ann's mother and fathers marriage, and Ann's baptisim.!

[londoner]

is Elizabeth baptised at Breage 5 July 1812 to Thomas and Ann too early to fit?

The earlier baptisms you found, Ian, probably belong to Thomas And Ann (nee Martin) married 30 Oct 1803 at Sithney.

The witnesses at the marriage of Thomas & Ann Rogers were James Rogers and Elisth Lusmore Fisher. James could have been her father or brother - father's name not mentioned, but she is spinster so no previous marriage complications this time!

So then we find - at Breage:
Ann Rogers d/o James & Elizabeth bap 1787
James Rogers s/o James & Elizabeth bap 1794 (presume died) and 1798 -

There is a marriage of James Rogers to Elizabeth Friggens banns at Breage listed without date on the Cornwall opc site giving bride's location as Gulval. IGI lists this at Gulval 23 Apr 1785

the other witness ELizabeth LOOSEMORE Fisher d/o William & Elizabeth was bap Breage 31 Jan 1794, she later married John Treweek at Breage 1815