Hall/Johns/Williams/Sampson

[anns]

Seeking information on John Hall, wives & children.

1.My search starts with John Hall b Ludgvan 15/12/1841
He married a Mary Johns in South Australia 15/4/1865…
On the marriage cert John is 22 & Mary 19…….John`s father is listed as John Hall (Miner), Mary`s father is listed as a James Johns. …..
On their son John`s birth cert (1868) they both list their birth place as Cornwall England….I have not been able to thus far find when either John or Mary arrived in Australia.
They had a daughter Elizabeth Ann b 1865 & a son John b 1868 both born in Australia, I can trace the tree here in Australia to the present day.

2. John Hall b 1815 d 1855 seems to be the next in line, he married Mary Anne/e Williams b ?
John & Mary were married 27/01/1840 in Ludgvan witnesses were Richard Hall & Zacharias Williams, John`s father is John Hall (Miner) & Mary`s Zacharias Williams (Miner)……….I believe Richard may have been Johns brother!

3. John Hall b ? I believe married Joan Sampson ( b 1791?) 13/08/1814 Ludgvan.

I would be interested to hear about any of these families, their children etc…….especially the Halls
anns

[Cornish Terrier]

Anns - the first thing we need to establish here is whether we have the correct parents for John Hall.

Do you have a Death Certificate or any other document that confirms his mother was Mary Ann Williams?

I ask this because if you look at the 1851 Census you will find two John Halls born about 1841/2 and in each case the father was John.
One is at Ludgvan son of John and Mary Ann so is the one you have mentioned but the other is at Gulval and was son of John and Margret Hall.

If you have something that confirms Mary Ann Williams as the mother of your John it will save us being led down a garden parth.

CT

[anns]

CT Thank you for your reply.
No I have no proof that Mary Ann Williams is Johns mother but had been the only one I could find and the repetition of names down the family seemed to fit.
Anns

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Anns - okay, well the 1851 Census shows the two John Halls I mentioned.
One is at Ludgvan with parents John and Mary Ann . He was born 15th December 1841 and baptised 23rd January 1842 at Ludgvan.
The second is at Gulval with parents John and Margret. This John Hall born at Gulval and was baptised at Carfury Chapel on the Penzance Bible Christian Circuit 15th June 1842.

Both are good matches given the details you have supplied so it may not be easy to determine which is the right one.

Given the notoriety of transcriptions for the Census Indexes it is possible that there may be more possibilities and we don't know for sure that your John came from the West of Cornwall.

These two are a good start anyway so we need to probably work on them to see if one or other (or both) can be eliminated.

No luck so far with Mary Johns in the Census so I will keep looking for her.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Well Anns - it looks like I can safely eliminate one John Hall.
Unfortunately the one I can eliminate is the one you thought was your connection.

1851 Census
Treassowe, Ludgvan
John HALL, head, mar, 35, tin miner, Ludgvan
Maryann do., wife, mar, 35, miners wife, Ludgvan
John do., son, 9, scholar, Ludgvan
Mary Jane do., daur, 7, scholar, Ludgvan
Zacharias do., son, 5, scholar, Ludgvan

John son of John and Mary Anne Hall of Treassowe baptised 23rd January 1842 Ludgvan (born 15th December 1841)
Mary Jane daughter of John and Maryanne Hall of Treassowe baptised 14th January 1844 Ludgvan
Zacharias William son of John and Mary Ann Hall of Treassowe baptised 12th April 1846 Ludgvan
Ann Maria daughter of John and Mary Ann Hall of Treassowe baptised 14th January 1849 Ludgvan
Ann Maria daughter of John and Mary Ann Hall of Treassowe baptised 9th November 1851 Ludgvan
Philip Henry son of John and Mary Ann Hall of Treassowe baptised 5th June 1853 Ludgvan

1861 Census
Crowlas, Ludgvan
Mary Ann HALL, head, widow, 45, domestice, Ludgvan
John do., son, unm., 19, tin dresser, Ludgvan
Mary Jane do., daur, unm, 17, stamps girl, Ludgvan
Zacharias do., son, unm, 15, tin miner, Ludgvan

1871 Census
Wheal Baddern, Kea
John HALL, head, mar, 29, Agent, Wh. Jane, Kea, Treasowe Ludgvan
Margaret do., wife, mar, 30, Agent's wife, Lower Quarter Ludgvan
Mary E. do., daur, 1, Kea
John do., son, 5 mo, Kea

John HALL married Margaret CHAMPION in the December Qtr of 1868 Penzance Reg. Dist.

As you can see from the baptisms of the children above they were all resident at Treassowe, Ludgvan when baptised. By 1861 John senior has died and son John is still living at Ludgvan with his mother and two surviving siblings.

In 1871 John Hall age 29 was married and living at Kea. But the most important thing here is that he has stated his birthplace as Treassowe, Ludgvan.

By this time your John Hall had been in Australia for at least six years.

Next step now is to see if we can track the movements of the John Hall born at Gulval to see if he might be the man you are looking for.

CT

[anns]

CT
Not sure if this will be any help but on birth certificate I have that lists John Hall 1868 birth in Victoria....John Hall (the father) is 26 y o and lists birthplace as St Ann Cornwall England
Mary nee Johns is 23 and lists just Cornwall England.
ann

[Cornish Terrier]

St Ann Cornwall

Ann - how difficult to read is the writing on that Certificate? Is there any chance that John's birthplace could be something else?

I see that the family moved to Victoria but I cannot find any death record for a John Hall that might match in Victoria
If there is any other little piece of information that you might have tucked away it could be handy and if it is possible to send me a copy of that Birth Certificate I might be able to make something more of it.

If that is possible there is a little Email Icon just under my Avatar. Just move your mouse cursor over it to see which one.

Do you have any idea of when or where John might have died?

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Having now seen a copy of the certificate I requested I did a little research.

The name of John Hall's birthplace does 'look like' St Ann but ......... it could be St Ann, St Anne or St Anns.

St Anns Chapel is in Calstock Parish and not far from Gunnislake and there was a John Hall born there in 1841. He appears to have been baptised in 1842 but to parents Richard and Ann.

Thinking more on that name reminded me that St Agnes is/was often pronounced 'St Annes' so I dug a little further and found:-

John son of John and Ann Hall of Menagizzy baptised 15th March 1843 at St Agnes

John Hall married Ann Rosewall at St Agnes 23rd July 1835

I found a total of five children baptised at St Agnes to John and Ann with Lavinia (1846) being the last.
As John Hall was married in South Australia I decided to see if any of these other children might also have found there way to that part of the World. Lo and behold there was a Marriage for a Lavinia Hall (daughter of John) to Richard Semmens TREVORROW!

This was right back in my alley having begun to look into the Trevorrow family a couple of months ago!

Problem was that Lavinia was age 15 when the 1863 marriage took place when she would have been 17 had she been the girl born at St Agnes.

So a check of the South Australian Birth Index was in order and ................ Livinia daughter of John Hall and Ann (nee ROSEWALL) was born at Montacute, SA, 22nd January 1848. And another five children were born to John and Ann in South Australia after Lavinia.

It looks very much now that I have found a home for Ann's John Hall.

Further checiking found a couple of marriages in South Australia and then the family moved to Victoria.

CT

[anns]

Well it is a start thank you CT. Leaves me with lots of work to put it all together.
I have emailed a document to you asking if you think it might possibly be the registration of Ann Hall nee Rosewall`s birth. It says she was born in 1815 which would make her approx. 21 when their first child was born & 45 when the last child was born here in AU. See what you think!

Secondly in a search I found the following info on Johns family that may fit my timetable....

James Johns aged 43 b 1810
Hannah Johns aged 29 b 1824
Joseph Johns aged 9 b 1844
Mary Johns aged 6 b 1847
Charles Johns aged 1 b 1852
(all approx years as we know they might not be true & correct)

In August 1853 emmigrated on a ship named the Bore. (Code F; Fishe 013; Page 1)

Mary being 6 at the time & would make her 18 y o in 1865 when she married John Hall in Wallaroo S A.
Which would mean both John & Mary came out as children.??

anns

[Cornish Terrier]

Ann - I would consider that family a possibility and I presume that they arrived in South Australia.

But I have one small (large ) problem at the moment - I cannot find them anywhere in the 1851 Census and I can find no record of a marriage or of any children baptised to James and Hannah in England!

Ah - finally found something. Firstly that they arrived in Victoria and not South Australia.

But I now doubt this is the family you are looking for and I doubt they were from Cornwall.

Joseph Hudson Johns died at South Melbourne in 1917 age 73 with parents recorded as James JOHNS and Hannah HOBSON.

This will almost certainly be Joseph age 9 on the passenger list.

**** STOP PRESS **** ;D

That little 'Chase of the Wild Goose' may not have been a total waste of time after all!

Whilst searching the Victorian BDM Indexes for evidence of the above family I happened across this little gem:-

Victorian Pioneers Index 1836-1888
HALL, Mary
Father - James JOHNS
Mother - Elizabeth EDWARD
Age 27
Birthplace - Cornwall
Year - 1872
Reg. No. - 10372

This is your girl! And she died soon after her daughter Mary was born.
Daughter Mary died in 1873 at the age of 6 months so I should think the following is the burial information for Mary:-

Cemetery: BENDIGO
Interment No.: 4433
Date of Burial: 25th October 1872
Section: MON B5
Grave Number: 4433

I have some more investigating to do but the parents may be:-

3rd March 1832 St Just in Penwith by Banns
James JOHNS of St Just
Elizabeth EDWARDS of St Just
Witnesses - John Edwards, Thomas Wallis

I can add one more item for now - the Johns family arrived in South Australia sometime before June 1851.

Honor JOHNS born 9th June 1851
District Code - TMu Book 6 Page 344
Father - James JOHNS
Mother - Elizabeth EDWARDS

South Australian Death Registrations 1842 to 1915
Elizabeth Edwards JOHNS died at Wallaroo Mine, South Australia 2nd March 1869 age 61
District Code Dal Book 34 Page 316

From the same source is this one who is possibly Mary's father:-

James JOHNS died at Wallaroo Mines 1st July 1875 age 66
District Code Dal Book 67 Page 460


CT