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Post by zibetha on Jul 8, 2011 1:46:43 GMT -5
I am researching my 4th great-grandfather, Ralph Bartle of Helston. Born about 1786, died in 1841. He was a grocer, elected freeman of the borough of Helston, experienced a bankruptcy and died at age 55 or 56.
He married Mary Warne (Warren) also of Helston, daughter of Christopher Warren and Charity "Landeryou" (one of many spelling variations!)
Children were Mary b: 1812 and Richard b: 1815 -- I have found no others.
I have a bunch of Bartles linked into my tree via marriage but have been unable to connect them to Ralph or find his parents or siblings. Any help or resource suggestions are welcome!
Thanks,
Zibetha
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 8, 2011 5:12:30 GMT -5
Hi Zibetha - there is already some Bartle discussion going on in other threads although Ralph has not been mentioned.
You will find the name largely around Helston, Wendron, Crowan area and up to Gwinear, Camborne and Illogan. They are elsewhere but I think these are the main areas.
You also need to be aware of the variations including BARTEL, BARKLE, BARKELL and if you are using IGI for any searching you need to search BarKle and BarTle separately as the search will not pick up those variations.
I will try and have a look for Ralph a little later and also see if I can find any other children.
CT
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Post by zibetha on Aug 15, 2011 5:09:41 GMT -5
While I've yet to find a baptism record for Ralph, I believe I have found family for him.
I went back over what I did know about him and what was unusual. Helston didn't make sense except that he lived and worked there. He named his son Richard, not Ralph, he was a grocer (why?) and no Bartle was a witness on his marriage record.
I thought the best fit for him was on my Crowan list of Bartles, which did have 2 "Ralphs." I found a burial for a Ralph Bartle in Crowan in 1789, and a marriage in 1783 for Ralph Bartle and Peternel Williams that was in the right time frame. Then I searched for a second marriage for Peternel "Bartle," and bingo! She married Richard Bennatts in 1790 in Crowan. Richard was a "victualler" per the marriage record, and was also one of the witnesses to Ralph's marriage. So now I understand how Ralph wound up in the grocery business as well as why he named his son Richard, not Ralph.
I then found a daughter, Peternel, born 1784, to Ralph & Petronel Bartle and a son, Richard, born 1794 to Peternel & Richard Bennatts.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 15, 2011 10:00:48 GMT -5
Very good sleuthing Zibetha!  I am going to have to catch up on this one but that is good work and will hopefully help a couple of our other Bartle researchers.  CT |
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Post by Mal on Aug 29, 2011 7:08:00 GMT -5
I have found the marriage of Christopher Warren and Charity Landerio, 3rd Jan 1780 at Helston. Birth or baptism I found was 6th Jan 1753 Constantine daughter to John Laderyou and.... Blanche Bartill (Ist Jan 1710-1779) daughter of Peter Bartill (1682-  ) and Anne . IGI has CHARITY LENDERIOW and a sourced entry. This family, as far as IGI records indicate, seem to go back as early as 1593 at Constantine. I think the "Bartill" link is interesting given your later information and also that you should be looking, perhaps, in Constantine and not Helston. Peter Bartill is problematic, I can't find a marriage for Peter and Anne, only for a 1681/2 marriage to Blanch Tonkyn. It's possible that Anne is a misreading for Blanch and also the daughter being Blanch is suggestive however that's a 30 year gap- and there is no indication of an adult baptism or a bastardy bond that I can find. Anyway, hope that helps a little. |
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Post by zibetha on Aug 30, 2011 20:26:46 GMT -5
Mal,
Thanks for your response. I suspect a Bartill/Bartle connection but have not yet been able to establish it (have found multiple Bartle and Bartill men named Peter.)
I think the Crowan bunch are my line, the Gwinear crew seem to marry into my other established family lines frequently, and I'm not quite sure what to do with the Camborne-ians. Have several large spreadsheets going!
Zibetha
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2011 20:53:29 GMT -5
Hi Zibetha
Smart move using spreasheets. I use them all the time to mange my data. It is especially important to have each piece of data in separate columns so that you can sort them by those columns - for example I have columns for surname, first, second, birth year, father, mother, parish and one for notes - there are more if you wanted them. It is amazing what trends can become obvious when the data is sorted by the different columns - e.g. it can easily show up an incorrect entry for a wife/mother such as when an Eliza shows up in a group of baptisms when all around her are Emily.
Lannanta
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Post by Mal on Aug 31, 2011 5:21:12 GMT -5
Mal, Thanks for your response. I suspect a Bartill/Bartle connection but have not yet been able to establish it (have found multiple Bartle and Bartill men named Peter.) I think the Crowan bunch are my line, the Gwinear crew seem to marry into my other established family lines frequently, and I'm not quite sure what to do with the Camborne-ians. Have several large spreadsheets going! Zibetha Hi there. In my own experience, some lines have been resolved by going back up the tree and then coming down it again! Given the demographics of the times very often people married 2nd cousins or people who were connected to the family some way in order to preserve the inheritence. It's not a rule of thumb but it is has paid off several times or at least helped to eliminate false positives. |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 31, 2011 10:12:17 GMT -5
It is worth remembering that Crowan shares a rather long border with Gwinear and it shares a slightly shorter border with Camborne. And then of course there is the border betweein Gwinear and Camborne. As for Camborne itself well - "Going up Camborne Hill comin' Down"  CT |
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Post by Mal on Sept 2, 2011 7:25:07 GMT -5
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Post by zibetha on Sept 3, 2011 2:06:43 GMT -5
Yes, Mal, that is the family I am assigning "my" Ralph to. Oh, sorry for the bad grammar. I think the Ralph and William Bartle in No.5 in the National Archives item are Ralph's father and uncle. And yes, he is the grocer, as was his stepfather, Mr. Bennatts. I think he may have lived and worked in Helston but was probably born in Crowan.
Non conformist? Definitely possible-- the English & Swedish lines in my family were both very strongly Methodist.
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Post by zibetha on Aug 20, 2019 4:42:11 GMT -5
I am back to Bartle research due to a mother/daughter DNA match that links back to the town where I attended high school. I ran into a cousin at a class reunion a couple of week ago, and we had no idea that we were related. Blood is thicker than water??
Here is where I need help and/or welcome opinions. I think the Bartle families of Crowan, Gwinear and Cambone are probably related. I can trace my classmate (and his cousin I knew from church school, choir and the community orchestra) back to the marriage of James Bartle and Joanna Souden. James was the son of John Bartle 1752 Camborne and Elizabeth Simmons. It is Elizabeth who has me thinking. I am wondering if she might have been the daughter of William Semmons and Honour Hockyn of Crowan as she and James named their second daughter Honour-- first was Elizabeth-- and the age range fits (DOB 1751). I have no future info for Elizabeth.
I am on the Crowan line of the Bartle family, and my cousin/classmate's branch is from Camborne. He has a cousin whose father I knew as "Bart" that turns out to have been short for his middle name "Bartel"
A fine time was had at the party except for the mosquito bites after it rained.
Zib
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 27, 2019 19:16:00 GMT -5
That would be an obvious line to consider and is quite logical. I have just checked the Bishops Transcripts for Camborne and unfortunately, just like the Tapley-Soper transcript of the Camborne PRs, only the names of the parties involved and the date of marriage is recorded.
In both Tapley-Soper and the BTs James is recorded as James BARKLE but that is generally interchanged throughout the registers with BARTLE. The really unfortunate thing is that this marriage took place in 1775 and for 1774 the marriages in the BTs have all been transcribed in full - i.e. with witnesses, details of the abode (if recorded), whether bachelor or spinster (if recorded) and even the name of the Vicar!
If you can trace the deaths of John and Elizabeth you may be lucky enough to find them in a period where the ages and abodes were recorded. That might help identify whether or not Elizabeth is the daughter of William and Honour as you suspect.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 27, 2019 19:22:38 GMT -5
Of course you could also be unlucky enough for her to be:-
Elizabeth wife of John Bartle buried 16th February 1804 Camborne (no further details recorded)
Unfortunately, unless she is recorded as 'Bartel' or 'Barkel' or perhaps as 'Bessie' then it appears this 1804 burial is most likely your Elizabeth. None of the other entries up to 1850 are remotely possible.
Perhaps a Will might be helpful?
CT
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Post by white on Aug 29, 2019 2:02:06 GMT -5
Zib have e mailed you and sent private message.
E mail bounced.
Roy White
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) and Anne . IGI has CHARITY LENDERIOW and a sourced entry. This family, as far as IGI records indicate, seem to go back as early as 1593 at Constantine.
