also had some success found Mary ROSEMERGY burial on 24 December,1860 aged 84 years at Sithney which confirms a birth date abt 1776 and James ROSEMERGY buried 8 November,1850 aged 76years at Sithney.
and a Henry ROGERS, burial 19 July,1829 at Sithney aged 56years miner of Prospidnick Downs ( possibly the first husband of Mary Pascoe )
Searching the baptisms at Sithney and the names Thomas or William RUSSELL were witnesses at 439 marriages and lived in Sithney- anyone know anything about this family? or why they were witnesses so many times
Thank you for that information. I went to familysearch and found the image and printed it off for Jacob and Grace on the Pleiades. I have found more about the earlier Rogers line in the last few days than I have in the last 14 odd years of searching, but then I have probably actively looked at the family in New Zealand more than the rest of the family in Cornwall. Its great and like Carol I appreciate the support and help you have given.
funny how research goes sometimes when I went to refile some of data , from among the old papers two pages from the Crowan/Sithney parish which was sent by Cornwall County library and loe and behold there on the two pages is an entry for a Henry Rogers son of Henry 26th April, 1730 Crowan Parish register ( page 34) and a Mary Rogers dau of Mr Henry Rogers Jan 1 ( page 36 of Crowan baptisms )half way way down list is the year 1733 so this would be the daughter CT identified. Had just made a pencil mark Henry who? as couldn't make the connection back then.
Is it significant that the later entry for Mary he is Mr. Henry Rogers while the Henry Rogers is just Henry Rogers?
Been back over the article on Mathew Rogers, father of Henry Rogers of Skewes fame/infamey and there it states that Mathew Rogers only survived his father Henry Rogers of Cambourne by 18months, maybe being 30years . There is reference to "Killivose" , a note that states " Killivose" being 3 1/2miles from Skewes but can't see on either of my two old map so not sure where I picked that up
Have found " Killivose" just below Camborne and close by to my area of search so family connection may be possible.
I have been working down the line of Mathew Rogers , yoeman of Camborne and Mary ROWE's son JOHN ROGERS bapt 07 April,1702 and cross referencing some of the information . He is the young brother of Henry Rogers of Skewis seige . In the article of Keith Skues( 1983) Cornish History he states that John Rogers, youngest son of Mathew and Mary Rowe married Margaret Hocken at Camborne ( cannot find a marriage to date ) and was at " Killivose" according to rate book for parish until 1760.
It would seem also that Mathew Rogers had acquired additional property prior to his death. There is reference to his Will. Is it possible to access Cornish Wills online so I can check if there was additonal property in Crowan area?
Possible Family for John Rogers and Margaret HOCKEN : William Rogers bapt. 14 April,1725 Camborne Mary Rogers bapt. 7th October,1727 Camborne Elizabeth Rogers bapt. 06 January,1729 Camborne John Rogers bapt. 30 the June,1735 Camborne Matthew Rogers bapt. 14th October,1737 Margaret Rogers bapt. 04th November,1739
In my direct line I have additonal information, not yet proven by me, that William Rogers who married Mary Toye is believed to have been born 20th June,1743.
I have found a William Rogers, son of William in Camborne with two bapt dates on the record : Parish record show a private Bapt 20th June the other 03 July,1743 - why the two dates or is one the actual birth date and a typo area within the OPC . Checking where the other researchers source for the data for the 1743 bapt. came from.
The above William could possibly be the son the William( 1725) but at this time haven't find a marriage that would support this.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 18, 2011 5:27:33 GMT -5
From Kahie's Index I think the following to Wills at Camborne will be the ones you need to see:-
ROGERS, Mary: will proved 6 Nov 1709 ROGERS, Mathew: will proved 29 Apr 1703
The Will of Mathew does not appear to be amongst the PCC Wills available on DocumentsOnline so I would presume both the above would be held at the CRO.
Regards the two baptism dates - it is not unusual to find two baptism dates for children.
If you find a Private Baptism you may sometimes find another record for the 'Public' Baptism a little while later. Sometimes that will be within weeks and I have seen cases where it has been more than a couple of years.
In other cases a Private Baptism will have another note attached in the record showing the date the child was 'Received into the Church' which is the Public Baptism.
John ROGERS married Margaret HOCKEN 16th April 1724 at Camborne
oops lost my message I was posting so apologies for wherever it popped to- clicked bookmark and it disappeared???
anyway again Thanks for the wills and confirmation of John Rogers marriage. Have since found a William Rogers son of John bapt.24 April,1732 and two burials at Camborne for William son of John, so don't think this is the link for William Rogers and Mary Toye.
Off to explore the John and Edward Rogers of Crowan referenced in the Will's above and a Richard Rogers of Crowan who had a son Jonn 1703.
Its been a few months now and I think I have Jacob Henry Rogers sussed now having made contact with a descendant. Now I am looking at our John's siblings. Possible marriages for them are: Mary ROGERS married to Henry WATERS/WATTERS 31 Mar 1819 by Banns in Sithney (Witnesses Walter PERRY & William RUSSELL William ROGERS married Elizabeth KEMPTHORNE 3 Nov 1831 by banns in Sithney (Witnesses Thomas Rogers and Thomas Russell) Richard ROGERS married Sally RUSSELL in St Hilary Parish Thomas ROGERS married Sarah KEMPTHORNE 17 Aug 1833 in Sithney by banns (witnesses William Oates & ? Pascoe) Grace ROGERS married Daniel WILLIAMS 22 Feb 1838 in Sithney. Grace was the daughter of Henry ROGERS a miner deceased and Daniel gave his residence as Wheal Gorah?, Breage son of Thomas Williams cordwainer. Henry ROGERS married Elizabeth GEORGE in Sithney. I have begun tracking the family as much as I can on FreeCen - perhaps not as good as the real thing but a reasonably good replacement. It seems as though Henry has died about 1845 (age given as 43 but as we know ages can be flexible) as Elizabeth was head of the household in 1851 and a widow. In the 1851 Census William ROGERS also appears as a widower, but in 1861 he is married to an Elizabeth. This threw me a little but at the end of the names was Elizabeth GEORGE mother in law, so it appears William has married his widowed sister in law (cannot find the marriage as yet) sometime between the 1851 Census and the 1861 Census.
Any suggestions as to how we can prove these are "our" family.
At the moment I am keeping them as a separate files until we can prove they are the ones we are after.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 26, 2011 4:16:59 GMT -5
Hi Raewyn - good to see you have been busy.
Fortunately with this part of the family you are dealing with an era which will bring the Census into play. 1841 might be of some help but certainly the 1851 Census should be able to offer some information that will help link some of the marriages back to the family of Henry and Mary Rogers.
In fact I believe I can already say that Grace Rogers who married Daniel Williams was the daughter of Henry and Mary.
I must admit that I picked an 'easy one' to start with but it does get the ball rolling.
What you need to do is to take the name of each of Henry's children in turn and check the 1851 Census to see if you can find any reasonable matches. If you already have a potential spouse it can make it easier as you then have three items to use for cross-checking - birthplace, age and, if still living, the name of the spouse who should appear in the record.
In the case of Grace I looked at my options and concluded that Daniel was probably the least common name so merely tried a search for "Daniel Williams born Cornwall and living Cornwall".
As I expected there were not a lot of Daniel Williams to deal with .............. but! I had to look a little further down the list than I was expecting before I found what I was looking for as Daniel Williams was not born in Cornwall!
1851 Census St Just in Penwith Carnglaze Daniel WILLIAMS, head, marr, 36, tin miner, IRELAND Grace do., wife, marr, 34, SITHNEY Thos do., son, 13, tin dresser, Sithney Mary do., daur, 11, miner's daughter, Breage James do., son, 9, miner's son, St Just John do., son, 6, miner's son, Perran Wm H do., son, 2, miner's son, St Just
'Perran' (birthplace of son John) is probably Perranuthnoe.
Combined with the information from the marriage record this information confirms Grace as the sister of your John. But it is interesting to look at this family in the other Census years and in 1841 I found that Daniel is recorded as having been born in Cornwall!
I don't know how far you want to pursue some of this information but it might come in useful at some time and is worth noting.
In 1841 Daniel and Grace were living at Keigwin, St Just and had just the two children. But the interesting point is that the eldest child was recorded as 'THOS P' and my first thoughts were that the 'P' might stand for Pascoe.
But I was WRONG!
I searched the OPC site for any WILLIAMS baptisms with parents DANIEL and GRACE:-
Thomas PENBERTHY Williams bp. 24th April 1838 St Hilary son of Daniel and Grace of Sithney
You will find other children to Daniel and Grace on the OPC site with a son Daniel also given Penberthy as a second name. That would indicate the possibility that the mother of Daniel Williams was a Penberthy so it might be interesting to find out a little more about the reference in 1851 to his being born in Ireland.
I will have a look at some of the others and see what I can find but I may run out of time to find all the answers tonight.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 26, 2011 5:25:27 GMT -5
A little further checking on the family of Daniel and Grace Williams does something we all love - it confuses things!
In 1861 Daniel's birthplace is again recorded as Ireland but he is also widowed. But daughter Mary's birthplace is now recorded as Scilly!
There are three sons named William Henry baptised to William and Grace but you can find burials for the first two also on the OPC site.
In 1851 we have son James age 9 but there is no Daniel in the family. Yet in 1861 we have Daniel age 17 but no sign of James!
I can also find no baptisms for Mary, JAMES or John yet I can find a baptism for all the other children INCLUDING DANIEL! The first William Henry was born after the 1841 Census but baptised in September and buried in November 1841. Daniel was baptised in January 1843 so there is absolutely no room for James which suggest that there may be an error in the Census and that James was actually Daniel. (I am referring to the original Census record and not a transcript.)
No sign of a burial record for Grace yet but Daniel is clearly a widower in the 1861 Census.
The other thing I have looked at is the origins of Daniel along with the origin of the name Penberthy as used for two of his children. The marriage record indicates that Daniel's father was Thomas Williams, a cordwainer (shoemaker) and I find it curious that a 'cordwainer' might have ventured to Ireland.
However, there is one possible marriage that I can find which could be the parents of Daniel:-
20th August 1803 at Madron by Licence Thomas WILLIAMS, bachelor of the Parish of Camborne, married Mary PENBERTHY, spinster of Penzance Witnesses - James Resuggan, M Wright
I suspect this might be correct! On the off-chance of finding something useful I first tried to find other children of a Thomas Williams, cordwainer (or shoemaker). I had no success but decided it was worth a bit of a peek through the 1851 Census.
1851 Census Perran Downs, Perranuthnoe Thomas WILLIAMS, head, marr, 73, shoemaker, born St Hilary Mary do., wife, marr, 73, born Sithney
That indicates both Thomas and Mary were born around 1777 or 1778 which would have made them about age 25 if married in 1803. We also have them living at Perranuthnoe where, coincidentally, Daniel's son John was born.
And in 1841 Thomas and Mary Williams were living at Breage and this, again coincidentally, is where one Census record indicates Daniel's daughter Mary was born around 1839 or 1840.
If we work on the basis that an age recorded in the Census is a little 'arbitrary' then:-
Mary daughter of Thomas and Honor Penberthy bp. 5th February 1776 at Sithney
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 26, 2011 6:08:23 GMT -5
Raewyn - I have now had a very quick look at a couple of the other possible marriages you listed in your previous.
I cannot find Mary in the 1851 Census at the moment but on looking at the Sithney marriages there is another possibility. The transcript shows a marriage in 1821 between Mary? Rogers and a John Thomas so I think you may have to leave her for another time.
I do agree about William Rogers marrying a second time and after eliminating possibiliies from FreeBMD you will find that this is the marriage you want:-
December Qtr 1852 Helston R.D. Vol 5c Page 438 William ROGERS Elizabeth ROGERS
Gosh you have been busy and thank you. This will give me something to work on. I think I will take your advise and leave Mary till later. I have been using FreeCen only and FreeBMD, OPC site, Sithney Parish Records online database to work from, but it has given me a bit of a look at things. Grace I felt certain was the right sibling given Henry Rogers name was given on her marriage record, he was deceased at the time and had been a miner. Unfortunately I had been given some information that when I checked it out as much as possible (I chose to enter it all on a separate file until I could be sure) I found there were so many flaws in it there was no way it connected with Henry Rogers and Mary Pascoe. This is part of the reason I am entering the information in separate files so I can be sure. I will continue to work on this and report back