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Post by rowena on Jan 21, 2011 6:09:27 GMT -5
Dear Folks,
I've been searching for a James Pascoe who was the twin of William Pascoe, bapt. 1786 Helston, to parents Richard Pascoe and Hannah Rutter. I think I've found him in the 1851 Census, address Serins Croft, Treleigh, Redruth: James Pascoe, Head, 62, copper miner, born Wendron, with Alice Pascoe, wife, 63, born Gwinear.
I was not able to find them in the 1841 Census. Would someone be able to check this for me?
The OPC site shows the Helston baptism in 1787 to Richard and Hannah as the most likely for the fellow in the 1851 Census.
I also found a website, (a family tree full of major, errors on the Cornish end for James siblings and forebears) which claims Jame's wife Alice, is an Alice Williams, bapt. 30 Dec 1787, Gwinear, dau. of William Williams and Rebecca Williams. Also that James and Alice married abt.1813 in Gwennap. Trawling the Gwennap marriages, all I could find was a James Pascoe marrying Alice Martin on 3 Feb 1811, Gwennap.
Would anyone have access to these marriages to check whether there is any extra detail? I'd like to identify James father, profession or home parish if possible, plus Alice Martin. I can only find an Alice Martin bapt 1790 in Helston, so that's out, as 1851 Census has her born in Gwinear. There's also the possibility of Alice being a young widow when marrying James, and there is a marriage on 18 Sep 1808, Mylor between Alice Williams and John Martin (OPC- Phillimores). Am I on the right track here?
James Pascoe died 4 January 1857 in Sinns Croft, Redruth, Cornwall (there is a FreeBMD death Mar Qtr 1857 Redruth). Wife Alice died on 30 Jan 1866 in Redruth (FreeBMD shows her age 78, Mar Qtr 1866).
Children were noted on this website (& confirmed on IGI) as: i. MARY PASCOE, Christening: 29 May 1814, St. Austell, Cornwall, England
ii. CHRISTINA PASCOE, Christening: 26 December 1816, St. Austell, Cornwall, England; m. THOMAS WILLOUGHBY. Possibly spelt "Christiana Pasco". Notes for THOMAS WILLOUGHBY: Lived in the USA.
iii. JAMES WILLIAMS PASCOE, b. 23 January 1819, St. Austell, Cornwall, England; d. 1917, Terang, Victoria, Australia.
iv. MARTIN PRIST PASCOE, b. 21 May 1821, St. Agnes, Cornwall, England; d. 16 March 1894, Rutherglen, Victoria, Australia.
v. JANE PASCOE, Christening: 18 June 1824, Redruth, Cornwall
vi. LOUISA PASCOE, Christening: 12 August 1826, St. Agnes, , Cornwall
vii. WILLIAM NICHOLS PASCOE, Christening: 11 April 1832, Redruth, Cornwall
I guess I'm, looking for some confirmation that this fellow James is a likely contender for the missing twin born in Helston. It's always possible that he was born in Wendron to another family, and not baptised. One of my concerns is that there are a number of names amongst the children that don't occur in my Helston Pascoe family, who were pretty consistent with their naming patterns.
Names that are "new" are Christiana, Williams (which could be Alice's surname), Martin, Prist, Louisa and Nichols. If James father was Richard Pascoe, surely a Richard would appear amongst this lot, unless there was a falling out and he left home early. Plus, the Helston Pascoes' were not a mining family. Father Richard was a carpenter, and oldest son William trained as a carpenter, and later became a publican. Other sons were: agric. labourer, miller, and a tailor. You can see why I am suspicious. Although Richard did call one of his sons John Knill Pasoce, after the famous Cornishman from St Ives, a daughter Caroline (probably after Caroline of Brunswick) and there was a Cecilia, and that name doesn't appear in any of the wives families. Perhaps father Richard was getting creative with the 2nd marriage.
So, any further clarity or thoughts are welcome. Would love to know if anyone has a connection with this family.
Cheers, Rowena
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 21, 2011 8:48:57 GMT -5
This looks like 'Another Fine Mess'! ;D Let's start with what I can find at Gwennap and then I might throw it back to you to see which direction might be best. (All from Transcripts) James PASCOE m. Alice MARTIN 3rd February 1811 Rebeckah daughter of James and Alice Pascoe bp. 20th April 1812 That is all there is to find at Gwennap so we know that the family probably moved on. But what is interesting is that the only Alice Martin (IGI) baptised between 1782 and 1792 was the daughter of Tobias and Mary at Helston in 1790. Unfortunately there is nothing more in the record for the Gwennap marriage in the transcription I have and the fact that there is no added detail of any kind to the Mylor marriage makes me suspect that it might not belong. Afraid I am getting nowhere with this and I can also not find the family in 1841. I think I had best give my brain a rest! CT
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Post by sue on Jan 21, 2011 11:06:30 GMT -5
That 1851 couple James 62 & Alice 63 Pascoe in Redruth, born Wendron & Gwinear respectively : Widow Alice is still at that address Simms Croft Redruth in 1861. In 1841 the family were also at that address Simms Croft Redruth: James 50 copper miner Alice 50 James 20 " Martin 20 " Jane 17 " Wm 9 Barnett (?) 8 Not easy to read the writing of this surname as Pasco; transcribed as Pond.... Hmm, perplexed, Rowena : why spend braincells on this "source" then? ? Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 21, 2011 11:29:07 GMT -5
Does anyone have any de-mister? We have a marriage of James Pascoe to Alice Martin at Gwennap in 1811. Good start because we are looking for James Pascoe with a wife named Alice. The Census in 1851 tells us that he was born at Helston and she was born at Gwinear which begs the question of why they were at Gwennap. No law against it of course! Daughter Rebeckah is baptised to James and Alice at Gwennap in 1812 after which the family disappears from that Parish. Now that we have some details from the 1841 Census (Thanks Sue we know the names of five further children - James (20), Martin (20), Jane (17), William (9) and Barnett (8). Searches for Pascoe with parents James and Alice on the OPC site produce three matches at St Austell and then IGI gives a hand. The family as it looks to me at the moment is:- James PASCOE m. Alice MARTIN 3rd February 1811 Gwennap Rebeckah bp. 20th April 1812 Gwennap Mary bp. 29th May 1814 St Austell Christiane bp. 26th December 1816 St Austell (of Foredowns) James Williams bp. 24th October 1819 St Austell (of Crinnis) Martin Prist bp. 12th December 1821 St Agnes Jane bp. 18th June 1824 Redruth William Nichols bp. 11th April 1832 Redruth Barnett And then this 'source' claims that Alice was actually an Alice WILLIAMS but there is no marriage record quoted. About the only thing that fits here is that James, Martin, Jane and William all seem to match the details from the 1841 Census. So where did the names of Williams, Prist and Nichols come from? For that matter - where does Rebeckah come from for the first daughter? The 'source' claims that Rebecca was the name of Alice Williams' mother but that is all that we have. I am not happy with all of this at the moment. CT
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Post by rowena on Jan 22, 2011 0:47:16 GMT -5
Hi CT and Sue, Sue, I'm in awe of your sleuthing skills, finding the family under the name of Pond. Fabulous that you found them. I've emailed FreeCEN to ask them to review their transcription and change it. Your query about why bothering with this family tree Sue? It's out there with incorrect info on my direct line of forebears. It's what goes before James that is a mish-mash. However, James and Alice look potentially correct, and their descendant research looks ok. It looks like old research from the 1930's when there was a flurry of activity in Australia with Pascoe tree building. Lawyers were contacting families because an inheritance was held in Chancery in England. I've now collected 6 different stories about the "Pascoe Millions"... Someone has whacked early research online, trusting that the original material. If I can reasonably confirm James, his wife and children, then I've plugged one of the last holes in the tree. And, having just worked out how to find the purveyor of this website, I've emailed the descendant to have a bit of a chat. ;D Back to the main game. The baptism of Rebeckah to James and Alice Pascoe bp. 20th April 1812, Gwennap, indicates to me that mother Alice was the daughter of Rebecca and William Williams. CT, the Mylor marriage between Alice Williams and John Martin, 18 Sep 1808 wouldn't have detail because it's a Phillimores listing. But not sure why you think it's not to be trusted? I checked the OPC and Gwennap for burials for John Martin. Nothing on Gwennap, 1808-1812. The OPC had one on 13 Nov 1811, Mylor, no age given, but this is after the marriage of James Pascoe and Alice Martin. Although, she may have separated and not been an actual widow. Why has James Pascoe travelled from Helston to Gwennap? He is 25 in 1811 when he married. Probable reason work? Proposed father Richard was a carpenter, and twin brother William a carpenter who would have been through an indenture apprenticeship. Have to assume James would get the same training. 1841-51 census shows William living in the same street as dear old dad, working as a carpenter. Was there not enough building work around to support him? Was there competition and an unhappy relationship bet. brothers, or father and son. Did he need to strike out on his own, and be independent? His mother Hannah Rutter also died in 1811. Helston is next door to Sithney and Wendron, both mining communities, where he may have had early work as a miner, before travelling further afield. But, there's also a Helston Bastardy Bond (OPC) I've recently found, and am thinking about. Perhaps, this is in the mix of reasons, somehow. Bastardy Bond, Helston, 14 Dec 1802. Ann Furze, singlewoman, pregnant with child. Father's name: Richard Pascoe, Helston, carpenter First Bounden: William Rutter, Sudgoan, Miller There were other Richard Pascoes' born in Helston, who this may have been. I don't know of any other's who were carpenters. Have checked census material, but it has to be 1851 for any detail, and no other matches. So, is this the Richard Pascoe, b.1763 (so, age 39 in 1802) the father of James? The other connected name is William Rutter. Richard's wife was Hannah Rutter, and she had a brother William, born Sithney. Richard's last child with Hannah Rutter was John b.1800, she died in 1811, and he remarried in 1815 to Elizabeth Vine. So, was he playing up in 1802? I know one of the son's Richard the miller, b.1789 left home because of the 2nd wife, and started a Pascoe line in Ludgvan. I don't know much about Bastardy Bonds. James would have been age 16 (born 1876, bapt Jan 1787) in 1802. Would he have been named if he was under-age? Has Richard committed the act, or taken the responsibility for his son's actions? Was this a catalyst for James leaving home? Ms Ann Furze seems to have been a serial offender as she was named in a Bastardy Bond for the previous yr of 1801, with Richard Williams, Yeoman of Wendron. A bit of exploratory thinking... And Barnett, age 8 in 1841 C.? Is this Bennett, or Bernard? Hannah Rutter had a couple of brothers named Bernard/Barnard. Can't find an OPC death or baptism. Possibly a grandson, but I can't find him amongst the grandsons in this online family tree. Perhaps another relative, but Bennet/Bernard doesn't occur in the Helston Pascoe tree, and it appears that James was out of contact with the rest of the clan. This is annoying. Bennet occurs in Wendron trees, and may mean that Kames is not connected to Helston, but an unbaptised 1787 birth from Wendron after all. I've checked the OPC & IGI for Bennet/Bernard baptisms, nothing, and FreeBMD for deaths, nil. Trying to find some naming clues, William Williams married Rebecca Kneebone 6 May 1770, Crowan (OPC - Phillimores). She may have been bapt. 28 Jan 1748, Gwinear, dau of John and Mary. WW looks like there are hundreds, and impossible to pin down. That's all I can think of for now, Still digging, Rowena
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 22, 2011 5:03:09 GMT -5
Rowena - it is not the entry itself that I don't trust. It is the fact that it has no added detail yet is being associated to the James and Alice Pascoe scenario. The timing would be right and probably several other things would help explain the conclusions of 'the source' but right now it looks more a 'conclusion of convenience' which is why I am not happy with it. Should it be ultimately proved correct ............ then I will be happy! Don't let the fact James was recorded as a 'miner' confuse you too much. Coming from a family of carpenters suggests that he may well have been a tradesman also and it may well be that he was actually employed in the mine as a 'mine carpenter'. If I come up with anything else of help I will post it later. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 22, 2011 5:21:11 GMT -5
Rowena - only one more thing that I have managed to find.
You might want to find out what happened to:-
Elizabeth daughter of John and Alice Martin bp. 4th December 1808 Mylor
No burial for her at Mylor.
CT
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Post by sue on Jan 22, 2011 8:45:24 GMT -5
Hi Rowena If I understand you correctly, you're hoping, once you've garnered substantiating information, to liaise with the treeholder and get them to correct their on-line information. Well, good luck with that! I'm sure our DKM does that correcting as part of his approach to his trees. My personal experience with a public treeholder of some experience however was that we had a nice exchange of emails, I sent him well substantiated information with the evidence – but that was last year, and the tree out there remains unchanged! Anyway, back to your people. The 1841 census for the James & Alice at Simms Croft in Redruth: the writing is not easy, hence Pascoe being transcribed as Pond. I peered & peered at the “Barnett” entry: really not sure, interpret it how you will, Burnett, Bassett – Bennett is not, I think, what is written, but could be what was meant! The entry definitely ends in “tt”. I can see FBMD deaths for Bennett Pascoe Jun Q 1853 St Austell but age 75 OPC; Bennet Pascoe Mar 1859 Helston but Wendron OPC age 11; Bennett Pascoe age 76 Helston Jun 1900, again Wendron. And apparently a Bartlett Pascoe marries in Jun 1855 at Truro, to Hannah Hicks/Harriett Ann Courtis. Methinks the person of the 1841 census may have emigrated... The 1865 census entry for James & Alice Pascoe that you found at that address Simms Croft Redruth: it does say James was a copper miner; born Wendron; it doesn't say Helston. Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 22, 2011 13:30:54 GMT -5
You can add another child for James and Alice:- William Nicolas s/o James and Alice Pascoe bp. 8th September 1829 at Illogan Not buried at Illogan though. Afraid I can't make anything else of that name that you have not done Sue. CT
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Post by rowena on Jan 22, 2011 20:41:50 GMT -5
Than you both for your efforts,
Yes, thought I would spend some time today looking for a marriage for Elizabeth Martin, the child of Alice and John Martin. I'll see what I can find under both Martin and Pascoe. Pity it is likely to be before civil registration. Looked for deaths on the OPC - nothing, so far. Although it wasn't a through investigative trawl of the parishes whose records aren't on the OPC database.
Sue, the B....tt?, child seems to disappear, so I'll widen my spelling searches, for BMD's for this child. He and 1st child Rebecca, don't appear to be known by the familly descendants, having now looked at a few trees, which all seem to have the same source material, and which have missed the 1841 C, with the impossible handwriting.
2 of the sons, James William Pascoe and Martin Prist Pascoe emigrated to Victoria, Australia, settling in Terang and Rutherglen, respectivley.
James William married an Elizabeth Thomas, d. of William Thomas and Alice James. As they had their children in Victoria, it's likely they married there. Cornish marrying Cornish.
Martin Prist Pasoe married Sarah (sally) Kinsman 11 Dec 1841, Redruth, d. of Joseph Kinsman and Mary Lockett. They emigrated on the ship "Kent" from Plymouth 27 Oct 1866, arriving Port Melbourne, Victoria on 13 Jan 1867. They appear to have had 13 children, between 1842-1864 in Redruth and St Agnes.
More searching...
many thanks, Rowena
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Post by rowena on Jan 22, 2011 23:16:59 GMT -5
CT,
Since there's no baptism coverage for Illogan on the OPC, I hadn't come across the William Nicholas baptism. So, there's 2 of them, now. I hadn't thought of Illogan at all, with this family. Just goes to show how broadly you have to check.
Well now I'm wondering if there are other children bapted to James and Alice in Illogan 1827-1832. Have you already trawled this? Of course I'm wondering about young B...tt. On that thought, would you be able to send a copy of the original image of the 1841 Census for the James Pond/Pasco family? I'd like to have a good look at the name for young ...tt.
And then there's the possible death or marriage for Elizabeth Martin / Pascoe, in Illogan. She would be 18 in 1826, or 21 in 1829, so perhaps there may be something. All I really have to go on is that the family were in St Agnes in 1826, and Redruth in 1832. Or shall I pass this one onto the Illogan OPC? Very frustrating not having any access to Illogan records.
Many thanks for any help you are able to give. Rowena
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 23, 2011 6:49:22 GMT -5
Rowena - I began to reply to this hours ago but ran into a problem with PG and could not get access. Firstly - there are no further baptisms for this family at Illogan through to 1840 and there is no sign of a burial for Elizabeth Martin or Elizabeth Pascoe. I have also been meaning to ask you just how certain you are about James? You say that he was one of Twins but do you have anything for certain that suggests both survived? Why I ask is that with all these names becoming involved I am concerned that you may possibly be on one of the largest wild goose chases in history! We now have evidence suggesting that the name 'William Nichols' was used twice which to me is very significant. There is 'Martin Prist' to contend with as well as 'Rebeckah' and, of course, 'James Williams'. What were the names of the parents of Richard Pascoe and Hannah Rutter? If Nichols and Prist, in particular, do not appear then I would be thinking seriously that there is an identity problem. It just does not feel right to me. One other thing I can tell you though. The Indexed death record for Martin Pascoe lists his parents as James PASCOE and Alice WILLIAMS. CT
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Post by sue on Jan 23, 2011 15:16:54 GMT -5
I have nothing like the knowledge/experience/expertise/brainpower that CT has.
I would only say if I were looking at this one as a sideways from my direct line, then I would maybe put it on the backburner for now, cos it don't look great to me. We all work differently of course.
Just, sometimes it can be tempting to try & make things fit the information that is available. The joy of family history research is that it isn't simple, lots of jigsaw pieces are missing - it would be no fun if it was plain sailing!
I think I'll leave you to it, Rowena. Good luck!
Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 23, 2011 16:19:06 GMT -5
I am far from convinced but let's assume just for the moment that the James we are investigating was indeed the son of Richard and Hannah. There is a Hannah Rutter baptised at Sithney in 1755 to James Rutter and Alice Treloar. I am not sure if this is the right Hannah as she would have been about 31 when married. However, if she is the right one and if the above assumption were to prove correct then we have a possible origin for the name of that 'mystery' son from the 1841 Census. James and Alice Rutter used the name 'Bernard/Barnard' twice among their sons - in 1750 and again in 1772. I know little or nothing about these families so I am merely offering some straws for you to clutch at. CT
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Post by rowena on Jan 23, 2011 22:30:10 GMT -5
Hi CT and Sue,
The Richard Pascoe and Hannah Rutter (and 2nd wife Elizabeth Vine) tree is pretty well confirmed, and re-confirmed by different genealogists, a number of times since the 1930's. I spent a few years re-examining it, and theoretically building pascoe family groups and lines in Sithney and Helston, to sort it out, and look at names. So, overall pretty happy with what is there. (Doesn't mean I'm not open to thinking about possibilities).
Hanna Pascoe died at 55 years, and was buried Helston 4 Nov 1811, so that tallies with 1755 baptism in Sithney, which is the only one of that name in the Cornish records. This Pascoe family had come from Sithney and retained strong ties. Also, the Helston, Sithney, Wendron, Breage records are supposed to be fully micro-fiched, transcribed and online, so it doesn't look like there's another Hannah hiding. I've also tried to find any marriages between Rutters' and Hannah's, just in case she was a widow.
Although her name Hannah, and mother's name of Alice and some of her siblings names, don't appear amongst her children, they reappear amongst the grandchildren. She mainly had sons and only one daughter, whose names duplicate common names from the Pascoe's and Rutters. Certainly there seems to be some creative naming amongst the Rutters', but it is not repeated in the next generation down.
The twin sons William and James, were noted as twins in the Heston register. Also, James baptism in 1787, is the only James bapt, between 1779 and 1792 in Helston, Sithney or Wendron. So his age in the 1851 Census tallies with the 1787 baptism. Yes, Wendron has been put down as his place of birth, but this is not the last of these sort of errors amongst this family. It appears a son who spent some time in Australia, and 3 of his children were born there, is back in Illogan for the 1851 Census, and he and his wife's birth places look ok, but all his children are recorded as born in Illogan (only 1 was) - I kid you not.
Apologies, can't put it on the backburner. We're not going to get incontrovertible proof, but perhaps weight of evidence, may sway things one way or 'tother. So, at the moment, I'm leaning 80% towards James being Richard and Hannah's son.
So, the Pond census entry which CT sent, really seems to show B....tt age 8. Unless the B is like Pond, and is actually a miss-heard/miss-pronounced G etc. I searched FreeBMD going through the alphabet with *tt, and found deaths for Charlotte, Mar 1850 Redruth; Kitty Jun 1847 St Austell; Margaretta Jun 1845, Penzance; and William Henrietta 1855 Redruth. William Henrietta?
So now have searched Illogan adn St Austell baptisms - nothing. And have sent bapt search requests to St Agnes and Redruth OPC's, for any children bapt to James and Alice Pascoe.
Have also searched St Austell for burials for Elizabeth Martin/Pascoe and Mary Pascoe. So now looking for marriage or burials for these 2 girls in St Agnes or Redruth, after 1826 for Elizabeth, and after 1832 for Mary.
Re Williams as a middle name, it relates to mother Alice originally being a Williams, conveniently.
Another long email - sorry to be so dense folks. Ex govt bureaucrat, can't help it. Devil's in the detail.
Many thanks to both of your for your help. Cheers, Rowena
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