Carpenter/Sparnon/Pryor/Prideaux/Gilbert

[getafish460]

Hi all, and greetings,
I've been looking for a while now and wonder if anyone out there can shed some light for me. The surnames I'm looking for are those listed above, all from the Illogan/Camborne/Redruth area, although the Pryor's seem to have started out in Mawgan-in-Meneage (Helston area) I've traced the Carpenter family back as far as John Carpenter (b.1791) who married Susanna Jelbert(Gilbert) (b.30 Nov 1788)of Illogan in 1808, she was the daughter of Andrew Gilbert and Mary ____ (?) The Sparnon family, I've traced as far back as 1655. Any help would be greatly appreciated, likewise any help I can forward to you would be freely and happily given..
;D

[bruce0609]

I have an Andrew Gilbert b. 1757 Illogan d.1803 s/o John G. b 1705 or 1708 and Amy Dorman b. 1725 d. 1786. in my tree.
Do you have you Andrews lineage ?

[getafish460]

G'Day Bruce,
I didn't venture too far on that part of the line (to date) and it's something I must get back to (you know how it is!?) but what I do have is:

Andrew GILBERT (sometimes Jelbart) bpt 6 March 1757, married to Mary George on 27 Oct 1787 (his second marriage having married Christian Secombe on 31 Aug 1782), son of John GILBERD (sometimes Gilbert) bpt 14 Aug 1708, married to Amy Dorman in Illogan on Xmas Eve 1746, the son of Thomas GILBERD (sometimes Julbart) married to Catherine (surname unknown) in Illogan on 17 June 1704.
That's as far as I've gone to date. Hope this is of some help and sorry for the delay in replying.

Kind regards

Ted

[bruce0609]

Thanks Ted
No problem waiting for the reply. I have been chasing ancestors for some 40+ years so a week or two is nothing.
I am interested in John s/o Thomas as I have an alternative birth from Family Search
Name: John Gilbart
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 15 Dec 1705
baptism/christening place: REDRUTH,CORNWALL,ENGLAND
father's name: Thomas Gilbart
mother's name: Cathrien
indexing project (batch) number: P02029-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 90265
Lyn Gilbert's Ancestry Tree gives 14/8/1708 [ sic ] for John's baptism but is unreferenced.
You may have indicated the source of the 1705 date in a previous post, Ted , but I cant find it. Was it in a list of Illogan baptisms?
Regards

Bruce

[getafish460]

G'day Bruce,
You are correct in that i got the 14th of August 1708 date from OPC at Illogan, as provided to me by one of our fellow seekers (my apolgies if you're reading this but i forget from whence) along with reams of paper detailing baptisms in the parish going back further than i can perceive comfortably. I must confess to not having seen the Redruth entry before as all my details pointed to Illogan, so i naturally looked harder there. Notwithstanding, all the corresponding details that you provide allude to the same person (mothers/fathers name, etc) with the phonetic discrepancies ignored (we all know about those!!). I shall look into this further (just to cross check my own data). I've got Thomas and Catherine (Cathrien) as being married on 17 June 1704 in Illogan, so that might give us the benchmark we need. The time scale fits for both dates though, so I'm going to have a deeper look when time allows. Meanwhile, if you come up with anything new, please keep me posted.
Kind Regards
Ted

[Cornish Terrier]

Bruce and Ted - I can confirm the Redruth entry for you. I have copies of the early Redruth Registers (via FamilySearch) and the entry for 1705 is as follows:-

John son of Thomas & Cathrien Gilbart of Ilogan baptized Decem:1___

The image I am working from shows that the binding of the register is a little tight and the end of the entry runs over into the fold. However the very next entry is for December 16th.

But I do also have a copy of the Printed Transcript of the early Redruth Registers (1560-1716) by Thurston Collins Peter which confirms the date as December 15th.

CT

[bruce0609]

Perhaps , and just perhaps, John bp 1705 died and his name was recycled for the son born 1708 to the same parents. A not uncommon practice it seems. Unfortunately I have not been able to find a transcript of the 1708 baptismal register.

Bruce

[Cornish Terrier]

Bruce - I suggest you send an email to David Crocker who is the OPC for Illogan. I have contacted him on numerous occasions and he is very helpful.

You can find his contact details via the OPC site.

CT

[bruce0609]

Hi CT
I did just that. Here is a condensed version of his reply.

I've checked for the birth you want to find.
ANSWER--there is no listing in Illogan in LDS film 1849636 births to Thomas & Catharine.
Marriage listing Illogan on LDS Film 1849636, transcriptions by W. L. Bawden:
p. 329 Julbart, Thomas, & Catharine his wife---------17 June, 1704
p. 329 Julbart, John, & Elizabeth (Elizabath) his wife-----1 July 1704

This might be of some help. Since you think Thomas' son was John, his father's name may have been John--probably Thomas' first-born. And the earliest listings for John is possibly of that father--and I do mean possibly. Where they came from, I've no idea, but these are the first FC (Family Connections) for John Gilbert.

Baptisms on LDS film 1849636, transcriptions of Illogan by W. L. Bawden:
p. 32 Gilbort (Gilbart), Jone d. of John----------Oct (19), 1696
p. 33 Gilbort, Maray d. of John---------------Jan 8, 1699 (church year 1698)

p. 38 Jelbart, Maray d. of John---------------July 14, 1705
p. 39 Jelbort, Elizabath d. of John------------Aug 9, 1707
p. 43 Jelbort, Isiak s. of John--------------------Nov 23, 1712
p. 50 Gelbart (Jelbart), Ann d. of John & Elizabeth his wife-----------Feb 24, 1721
p. 53 Jelbert, (Gelbart), Edward s. of John-------------Jan 10, 1725 (1724 church year)



Here are some Burials, but you'll have to sort them out--if sortable:
Burials on LDS Film 1849636: (searching for Thomas, but also finding others)
p. 580 Jelbart, a Chaild to John---------Dec 1, 1712
p. 580 Gilbart, Ann-----------------------Jan 1, 1713 (church year 1712)
p. 580 Gilbart, Thomas*-----------------Jan 17, 1713 (church year 1712) *written over an erasure
p. 580 Gilbort (Gilbart), Elizabeth----------Nov 1, 1714
p. 588 Gilbert (Gilbart), Jane--------------July 18, 1728
p. 588 Gilbert (Gilbart), Thomas (Tho:)---Aug 18, 1728
p. 605 Gilberd (Jelbard), Thos. * (Thomas)--------Sept 2, 1748 *Thos is written over erasure.
p. 606 Gilberd, Thomas s. of Jane Widow-----------Jan 28, 1750 (church year 1749)
***************************************

As you indicated , David was very helpful.
But the 1708 baptism for John may be a furphy
Bruce

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Bruce - glad you made contact with David.

It appears the 1708 event 'may' have been one of those entries supplied by a 'member' but not actually transcribed from a parish register.

Best bet at the moment is to work on the information supplied by David along with what I have found in the original Redruth PRs. Keep the other information in mind but certainly treat it with the utmost caution.

CT

[getafish460]

Hi all,
I'm following this, on and off. and i think i might have to go back and look at some of my sources and re-think my data.
Ted

[getafish460]

Also, I notice that hte burials give three Thomas', all contemporary with each other, being buried in 1713,1728 and 1748 respectively (albeit with differing spellings of the surname)
I intend to start with the spellings that I've got (GILBERD/JULBART) and try and work both back and forth to try to isolate the specific individual.
Phonetic discrepancies from old parish entries are enough to drive you to distraction. Thank heavens for modern literacy in such offices.

[getafish460]

do we have an age for Thomas when he married Catherine?

[Cornish Terrier]

do we have an age for Thomas when he married Catherine?

Ted - given the time period we are looking at it is doubtful that any marriage record at all would have included ages. Mostly it is just the two names and in some cases, such as early St Erth, only the groom's name might be mentioned.

CT

[bruce0609]

Hi Ted
Looking back at your post of 22 January, how did you tie John who married Amy to John being the son of Thomas ?
I have had a mail from outside this forum suggesting John h/o Amy may have been baptised in Redruth 1719 s/o John & Elizabeth, making him much closer in age to his wife Amy.
This family is so darned hard to figure out, I am cross checking everything possible [ and even so I doubt I/we will ever be sure ]
Regards
Bruce