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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 6, 2022 9:03:12 GMT -5
No, this is a later generation and I have already been down that path. I don't have a baptism for Margery but she was probably born during the 1630s. I do know her parents were Christopher Cock and Jane Penhellick who married at Helston in 1626 and she is mentioned in her father's Will.
Christopher Cock was baptised at St Columb Minor in 1597 to Thomas and Margery Cock. From the 1635 Will of his father Thomas Cock the family was as follows:-
Anne 1594 St Columb Minor married Thomas John at St Columb Minor in 1619 Christopher 1597 St Columb Minor married Jane Penhellick as above Elizabeth 1601-1619 St Columb Minor Margerie 1604-1608 St Columb Minor (twin) Bettres 1604 St Columb Minor - nothing more known (twin) John (no baptism found) married Dorothy Pellean 1631 St Columb Minor Thomas 1612 St Columb Minor married 1 Margaret Vivian 1634 St Columb Minor married 2 Dorothy Benny 1638 St Columb Minor
Christopher and Jane (Penhellick) Cock did have a son named Christopher who appears to have been married sometime before 1666. Christopher Cock senr in his 1679 Will named grandaughter Sarah Cock as one of his beneficiaries. (Sarah daughter of Mr Cristovar Cock was baptised 11th July 1666 at Helston) I suspect the wife of Christopher Cock junr was named Catherine and probaby the Mrs Catherine Cock buried at Helston 16th April 1708.
The only possible way the elder Christopher might be a brother-in-law to William Nennis of the 1664 Will would appear to be via a marriage to Bettres Cock but I have been able to find no further reference to her in any records except for her father's Will. Bettres/Beattres was named in her father's Will in 1635 and appears to have been still unmarried at that time.
CT
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Post by zibetha on Sept 6, 2022 16:06:12 GMT -5
Hmm, my thinking paralleled Roger's, so I am curious as to who you have as Margery Cock's husband David's father. I have a great-grandfather who mined in Michigan and Alaska before moving to the US permanently and can be found traveling with his wife's brother and her sister's husband as brother-in-law or just plain brother with his BIL's last name.
I have been working with several shared DNA tests trying to untangle a large group of matches that make no sense to me. They hail from the US Virginia Colony and Georgia and North Carolina, and I have no known family that lived there. I've been looking at Harveys, Blewetts and Cockes that I know settled in the USA. Particularly Christopher Cocke 1643 son of Thomas C and Mary Pearse (?) and his wife, Grace Bolitho. I am DNA linked to descendants of Grace going back to the Pascoe family of Wendron.
Change of topic to James Trewhella, the Church warden. The mysterious Christopher T is "mine" and outside of Anne Trewhela and William Harvey's descendants, I have 10 DNA matches, 9 of which don't link to any other known family line.
Katherine Trewhella and Thomas Colensoe - 2 matches with one who could be a Ford William Trewhella and Jane Baragwanath - 3 matches Jane Trewhella and Nicholas Berriman - 1 match Martin Trewhella and Catherine Baragwanath - 1 match Alice Trewhella and Hannibal Harry - 3 matches
Zib
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 6, 2022 17:55:54 GMT -5
I have not yet determined who this David might belong to. Looking at my database at the moment the only possibility would be 1619 son of William Nennis and Jane Dunn making him about 40 or 41 at marriage. The problem is that a fair amount of the early Perranuthnoe records have been transcribed and in fact it is not until 1681 that the first Perranuthnoe baptism appears on the OPC site! Those records are also a bit of a nightmare to work with given many pages suffer from a lot of fading, some have pages have pieces missing down the centre of the page and the Vicar was never really consistent with how he filled out entries. In some cases there will be a section of baptisms, a section of burials and a section of marriages whilst in other parts of the register BDMs will be scattered and intermingled over a few pages. Some entries are out of order and in some cases baptisms might run for a couple of years and then started again many pages later before stopping again. My point here is that there 'could' be other David Nennis (var.) baptisms scattered in there somewhere! In any event, even if the husband of Margery Cock was the son of William Nennis and Jane Dunn it would still not explain a relationship of William Nennis (1597-1664) and Christopher Cock (1597-1679) being brothers-in-law. That is why I would really like to find a copy of the second page of William Nennis's Will that is filmed properly so that I can see for myself if that relationship really does say 'brother in law'. Very interesting! If you have links to all of these then surely you and I must also have a DNA match ............ somewhere!! Martin Trewhella and Catherine Baragwanath are direct-line ancestors and Alice (m. Hannibal Harry) was a sister to this Martin with both being children of my direct ancestor Martin who married Alse Phillips at Zennor in 1688. Now, Martin is believed to have been son of Thomas Trewhella and Katherine Buswin whilst by my reckoning the William who married Joan Baragwanath in 1689 was a son of James and Blanch Trewhella. This would make Martin and William first cousins. And I have Thomas, James and Katherine (wife of Thomas Culensoe) all children of James Trewhella the Churchwarden. I might have to make a decision on the placement of this topic soon. On the one hand it belongs in the Helston/Perranuthnoe sort of area because it is largely about the Cock and Nennis families but on the other hand it sort of began as a side issue to the Trewhella forum due to the potential links of Christopher Trewhella. I certainly don't want to have conversations spread far and wide so I have been considering moving the whole thread to the Trewhella forum. Any thoughts??? CT
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Post by zibetha on Sept 6, 2022 18:23:27 GMT -5
I think we probably match at a level below what the DNA sites list.
I have been researching my oddball USA DNA match line and finding more and more links to Wendron and St Columb Minor.
If others have an interest here, I would suggest that if you have tested on Ancestry.com you do a surname search and chime up! I never suspected that my brother's test would yield so much additional information.
Zib
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Post by zibetha on Sept 6, 2022 18:25:20 GMT -5
My thought is that this relates to Cocks and Hockins. A shout out to Cousin Zenobia.
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Post by zibetha on Sept 7, 2022 1:20:08 GMT -5
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 7, 2022 5:46:14 GMT -5
True although Christopher Cock's family appears to be more connected with St Columb Minor and currently I know of no connections to the Gwithian Cocks.
My main concern is to get the conversation/s away from 'Queries' and into a more appropriate forum if possible.
CT
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Post by zibetha on Sept 7, 2022 7:05:15 GMT -5
Nor have I found any connection. Working my DNA.
Zib
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 7, 2022 11:39:02 GMT -5
I am now leaning fairly heavily towards agreeing that the parents of David Nennis were most likely William Nennis and Jane Dunn. That would mean David was baptised at Perranuthnoe 29th March 1620. (this baptism actually appears under 1619 in the register but is at the end of the year after entries for June and January 1619. As the Julian year began on 25th March then the entry should actually be under 1620) I have just spent a few hours labouring my way (literally!!) through the 1562-1725 Perranuthnoe Parish Register in an attempt to extract all the Nennis and variant entries I could find. Unfortunately quite a number of pages are largely unreadable but it does look from my spreadsheet like I have a very good representation of the family. I also must say that the Vicar(s) during this period were some of the most untidy I have come across in Cornish registers! Some time later in the night I will work through the extracted entries and update my database. One very interesting entry I found was this one:- 17th May 1624 Richard the sonne of William Nenis of Zennor was baptised
CT
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Post by donne on Sept 7, 2022 18:25:50 GMT -5
There is patchy coverage in some Perranuthnoe BTs at www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-893K-KGHP?i=4&cat=1833655 , though those transcripts which do survive seem better preserved than the register pages which CT has worked through. Image 5 for 1619 is interesting since it implies that there are two William NENIS families in Perrnauthnoe baptising children at this period, listing a baptism "Jane the daughter of William NENIS of Trevean" on 2 Jun 1619 and "David the sonne of William NENIS of Henvor" on 29 Mar (presumably 1620 as CT has pointed out). This distinction of abode doesn't seem to be made elsewhere, and the 1624 transcript at image 7 doesn't include the important 'of Zennor' information noted by CT in the baptism of Richard NENIS on 17 May. The earliest image (Image 2) in the sequence is for 1614 and includes the baptism of "Wylliam the sonne of William NYNNES ... 18 Nov 1614"
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 8, 2022 5:59:08 GMT -5
Yes, there were certainly two Williams involved. Except for the mention of 'Trevean' in her baptism it could be argued that Jane was a daughter of William Nennis and Jane Dunn although the spacing of baptisms would be 'tight'. But we do have the Will of William Nennis (husband of Jane Dunn) which lists all his then surviving children and there is no daughter named Jane. Of course Jane could have predeceased her father ......
However, I think the answer will be that Jane fits into the other family:-
William Nynnes and Elizabeth Rowe the daughter of William Rowe deceased were marryed 18th November 1610 at Perranuthnoe (Parish Register and Phillimore)
Richard the sonn of Willyam Nynnes was baptised 1st November 1611 (Parish Register) Wyllyam the sonn of Wyllyam Nynnes was baptised 28th November 1614 (PR and BT) Jane the daughter of William Nenis of Trevean was baptised 2nd June 1619 (BT)
William Nenis was buried 3rd November 1624 (Bishops Transcripts) (this may or may not be the same William) Elizabeth Neenes widdow was buried 24th January 1665 (PR - may or may not be from this family)
There is also a baptism 20th May 1626 where the surname is extremely difficult to read - Thomas son of William Nenis? was baptised (the name may or may not be Nenis)
An additional problem is the fact that there appear to be a number of years of burials missing. Certainly from 1597 to 1616 the pages of the PR are badly worn and in some cases have serious fragmentation down the centre making them almost impossible to read. I did find three burials including that of William in the BT for 1624 but then the next burials I could find were not until 1658.
I just rechecked the PR and there is a note at the beginning stating burials from 1617 to 1652 'are wanting' - which is a technical term for missing.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 8, 2022 19:53:33 GMT -5
Re: 'brother in law' Christopher Cock I have checked FamilySearch Wills again and can find no other copy of the 1664 Will of William Nennis that might show the complete second page where Christopher Cock is mentioned. Without that page it is impossible to know exactly what relationship was specified between William Nennis and Christopher Cock - all we know from what can be seen on that second page is that it was'in law'. If the phrase actually was 'brother in law' then it does not make sense given no marital connection can be found to support it. On the other hand, I can think of no other 'in law' relationship that would make any sense either! As it does now appear probable that the David Nennis who married Chistopher Cock's daughter Margery was indeed the son of William Nennis (the 1664 Testator) and Jane Dunn then the relationship to Christopher Cock would actually be that he was the father-in-law of David Nennis. But there were some relationships specified in Wills and other documents particularly during the 17th and 18th Centuries that today seem very odd to say the least! So perhaps 'brother in law' may have been the appropriate term in this case for William Nennis and Christopher Cock given William's son David was married to Christopher's daughter Margery! CT
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Post by donne on Sept 9, 2022 2:03:09 GMT -5
Re: 'brother in law' Christopher Cock As it does now appear probable that the David Nennis who married Chistopher Cock's daughter Margery was indeed the son of William Nennis (the 1664 Testator) and Jane Dunn then the relationship to Christopher Cock would actually be that he was the father-in-law of David Nennis. But there were some relationships specified in Wills and other documents particularly during the 17th and 18th Centuries that today seem very odd to say the least! So perhaps 'brother in law' may have been the appropriate term in this case for William Nennis and Christopher Cock given William's son David was married to Christopher's daughter Margery! CT As far as I can see, the only other candidate for the groom of Margery COCK would be David, the son of William NENIS junior, who married Grace FAVELL in Perranuthnoe 1 Aug 1641. Their son David was bap. 5 Apr 1645, making him only 16 at the time of the 1661 NENIS/COCK marriage - a very unlikely candidate for groom, I think. Thus the conclusion must be that the groom was actually the 41 year old son David of William NENIS senior.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 9, 2022 7:27:01 GMT -5
Yes, I think the husband of Margery Cock has to have been the son of William and Jane. Further - after reviewing all the Perranuthnoe records I can find from 1562 through to and beyond the 1660s I believe I can take William Nennis back one generation. This is likely as far back as this family can be taken without resorting to Deeds and other ancient records. In his 1664 Will William Nennis named 'brother James Nennis and his children' and also 'brother Thomas Nennis'. There was also mention of 'cuzen' Elizabeth Colliver and 'cuzen' Richard Williams but I have not been able to identify them. William appears to have been a son of John Nynnes 'the younger' and an unknown wife whom I will address at the end of the probable list of children (all dates are Julian or old style as they appear):- 18th April 1584 Wyllyam the sonn of John Nynnes the yonger was baptised (I have not been able to find a burial for William) 29th March 1586 John Nynnes the elder was buryed7th September 1587 Alice and Elizabeth two twinnes the daughters of John Nynnes the yonger were baptised 12th September 1587 Alice the daughter of John Nynnes the yonger was buryed 30th January 1587 Elizabeth the daughter of John Nynnes was buryed 12th January 1588 William the sonn of John Nynnes the younger was baptised25th March 1591 Elizabeth the daughter of John Nynnes was baptised 29th Setpember 1593 Henrye the son of John Nynnes the younger was baptised 12th January 1593 Henry the sonn of John Nynnes was buryed 31st March 1596 James the son of John Nynnes was baptised the last daye of March 21st February 1601 Thomas the sonn of John Nynnes was baptised 19th November 1614 Elnor Nynnes wydow was buriedWilliam and Jane Nennis had six known children all named in his Will and of these the first five were all sons. The only daughter was the youngest child whom they named Eleanor and it is for this reason that I think it possibly the 1614 burial of 'Elnor Nynnes wydow' might be William's mother. As per previous posts the burials from 1617 to 1652 are apparently lost and the pages covering the period 1597 to 1624 are mostly so badly faded or otherwise damaged that few entries are legible so no burial for a John Nennis (var.) can be found prior to that of Elnor. A John Nenis the elder was buried 23rd May 1624 which, if the father of William, would render the burial of Elnor in 1614 immaterial. However there was an Administration dated 21st June 1611 for a John Nynnes of Perran Uthnoe. (The Kresen Kernow label for this is for 'John Nynnes of St Hillary or Perranuthnoe') The Inventory is for John Nynnes of Perran Uthnoe but on reading (or attempting to read!) the Bond and Obligation it mentions John Nennis - - - late of the parrish of St Illarie. The great pity of this is that there was no actual Will involved. CT
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Post by donne on Sept 9, 2022 15:56:44 GMT -5
As per previous posts the burials from 1617 to 1652 are apparently lost and the pages covering the period 1597 to 1624 are mostly so badly faded or otherwise damaged that few entries are legible so no burial for a John Nennis (var.) can be found prior to that of Elnor. A John Nenis the elder was buried 23rd May 1624 which, if the father of William, would render the burial of Elnor in 1614 immaterial. However there was an Administration dated 21st June 1611 for a John Nynnes of Perran Uthnoe. (The Kresen Kernow label for this is for 'John Nynnes of St Hillary or Perranuthnoe') I'm not sure if this helps, but as I've mentioned before there is sporadic coverage of burials for the period 1617 to 1652 in the Exeter BTs, as follows: 1617 - no NENIS burials 1619 - no NENIS burials 1623 - no NENIS burials 1624 - John NENIS the elder 23 May 1624 (you already seem to have extracted this one) William NENIS 3 Nov 1624 1625 - John ENIS 7 Jan 1625 1627 - page damaged though there doesn't seem to be any NENIS names; William NENIS signs BT as churchwarden 1630 - no NENIS burials
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