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Post by Zenobia on Apr 22, 2007 21:47:21 GMT -5
Richard Hawes and Catherine Penberthy were married in Lelant on 17 Jan 1771. The witnesses were Richard Hawes (the groom's father and parish clerk) and John Moorshead.
Richard and Catherine had 4 children:
Richard, 1772
Gertrude, 1774
Gertrude, 1778
Catherine, 1782
Now, usually when a couple marry, the bride's father (or mother if the father is dead) is one of the signatorial witnesses to the marriage. This is not writ in stone, but it is pretty regular.
So I suspect that Catherine may have been an orphan by the time of her marriage.
Now, Catherine is buried at Lelant 19 Feb. 1824, age 88., so that puts her birth back to about 1735.
That would make her 36 when she married (not unusual in Cornwall) and would fit nicely with her having only 4 children, as the last would be born when she was 47.
However, there is no Catherine Penberthy to be found in Lelant ca. 1735, not in any of the nearby parishes. I have also looked under Katherine, Christian and Kitty, but with no result.
I have studied the Lelant Penberthy families, to see if any family might be missing a child, but all the families look pretty intact.
Now, there is a Catherine Penberthy chr. at Lelant on 2 Feb 1745. This person never again shows up in the records. I cannot find her marrying anyone, dying as a child or teen, or as an elderly spinster... A brother, John Penberthy named a child Catherine, which to me seems to indicate that his sister lived to adulthood.
This Catherine was the daughter of Stephen and Margaret (Harry) Penberthy, both of whom were deceased before 1771.
Even tho' this Catherine is ten years younger than the age given for Catherine Hawes at her death, I keep coming back to her...
Any thoughts?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 23, 2007 12:56:36 GMT -5
I have some thoughts!  Is it not possible that Catherine was not baptised until she was 10 years old?  (I am sure we have seen this before.) But you bring in an interesting 'sideline' for me! (Something I have not looked at since I updated some information back in 1999) A contact in New Zealand - by name Kevin Sartorelli - supplied me with this information. Richard Hawes was bn./bp. Lelant c. 1735 s/o Richard Hawes and GERTRUDE (nee HOSKING) and was buried at Lelant c. 1807. He married Catherine PENBERTHY at Lelant January 17th, 1772 (according to Kevin) but this appears to be slightly incorrect. Kevin only supplied me with a few details on this family. Gertrude (1778) m. Thomas HAMPTON at Lelant June 20th 1801. Thomas being son of Robert Hampton and Jane (nee Hawes). Catherine (1782) m. John HAMPTON at Lelant October 27th 1804. John being also son of Robert Hampton and Jane (nee Hawes). And there the story begins to become interesting - but I will wait until you check this to see if it equates with your own records before I pursue it. BTW - Kevin Sartorelli (bn. 1961 NZ) m. Sandra Denise MOUNTER in 1984. I have some information here from him that I don't think I have properly perused as yet but there is a suggestion of some connection here. |
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Post by Zenobia on Apr 25, 2007 19:55:55 GMT -5
I have some thoughts! Is it not possible that Catherine was not baptised until she was 10 years old? (I am sure we have seen this before.) Not in this case unfortunately, as I have the info on the whole family as follows: Stephen Penberthy m. Margaret Harry 6 Aug 1735, Lelant Richard Penberthy chr. 26 Dec 1735, Lelant Stephen Penberthy chr. 31 May 1737, Lelant John Penberthy chr. 19 Aug 1739, Lelant Henry Penberthy chr. 21 Feb 1741, Lelant Catherine Penberthy chr. 2 Feb 1745, Lelant Henry Penberthy chr. 27 May 1753, Lelant I was trying to find a Moorshead connection. A Richard Penberthy m. Bridget Moorshead in 1723, and had one son, Stephen in 1724. Richard appears to be the man who died at Lelant in 1726. Richard had a brother Stephen, b. in 1698, who may have been the man who married Margaret Harry. The father of these two was named Richard, so it seems likely. The next Stephen Penberthy candidate is the son of a Stephen Penberthy, b. in 1708. This Stephen also had a brother named Richard, but he was too young to be the husband of Bridget Moorshead. Yes, John and Catherine are my ancestors. Both couples were first cousins as well. I have corresponded with Kevin (although I cannot remember specifically on which line), and all of his info on this part of the lineage comes straight from me.... |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 26, 2007 15:51:09 GMT -5
Hmmmm!  And how long ago did you supply this information to Kevin? I met him in New Zealand in 1994 and had the information sent to me not long after - so is it possible you have known him that long also?  |
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Post by Zenobia on Apr 26, 2007 16:17:05 GMT -5
It's been a long long time. If you look at his GedCom, you will see that he has my direct Hampton line down to my great grandfather John Edgar Hampton in Penna. Kevin does not share this line with me (it connects somewhere much further back, but I cannot recall on which name - probably Trewhella), and there are no other persons besides myself tracing the Cornish/American Hampton line, so there is nowhere else he could have gotten it. He has included all the details on my Joseph and John Hampton, their wives, inlaws, etc. (I dearly wish I could find some American Hampton descendants with an interest, but so far none have materialized  ) I note too that I should get in touch with him, as there is 'new' info on the Hamptons that he has not corrected. He would make a great addition to our board - I should write and ask him to join us. |
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 26, 2007 23:22:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification and it puts things a little more into perspective.
I think I had some correspondence with Kevin not too long ago but can't remember the details just now.
Kevin married Sandra Denise MOUNTER in 1984 and that will be where the 'Trewhella' connection comes in.
Sandra's 2xgt-grandmother would have been Phillis TREWHELLA, sister of Benjamin and daughter of William TREWHELLA m. Loveday EDDY.
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Post by calswimmer on Apr 27, 2007 16:49:58 GMT -5
Not sure if this is relevant, but Richard Penberthy, who was born 1783, married Ann Moorshead.
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Post by Zenobia on Apr 27, 2007 18:53:01 GMT -5
Not sure if this is relevant, but Richard Penberthy, who was born 1783, married Ann Moorshead. Yes, I knew there was another Penberthy/Moorshead marriage floating about somewhere. This one occured after Catherine's marriage to Richard Hawes, and it is possible that Richard Penberthy was one of her nephews (If she does indeed belong to this family). As far as I can tell, the John Moorshead who signed at Richard and Catherine's marriage was the son of Arthur Moorshead and Mary Eustice. It was probably this John's niece, Ann, who married Richard Penberthy. Interestingly enough, an Elizabeth Moorshead is living with Catherine (Hawes) Hampton, d/o Richard and Catherine, in 1841. She is a spinster, and had an illegitimate son, Thomas Uren, in 1811. She is a daughter of Arthut Moorshead, Jr. |
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Post by kevinsartorelli on May 10, 2007 20:53:45 GMT -5
Thought I'd pop in here ;-) Agreed with Kathie that great chunks of the Hampton et al lines I got from her way back. Way sideways from my direct lines, but there are intersections.
It is also correct that my wife has Phillis TREWHELLA, sister of Benjamin and daughter of William TREWHELLA m. Loveday EDDY in her basket ;-) That's my main connection to Penwith.
I must say that I've found it hard putting family, work and genealogy into each 24 hours without coming up short :-( Maybe I'll win Lotto and can drop the work portion (must buy a ticket for that!).
Corrections, updates always welcome.
On that, do we have some sort fo central place to throw GED files? Even just the direct lines would mean we could work out which of us belongs where ;-)
cheers
Kevin
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Post by Zenobia on May 10, 2007 23:14:42 GMT -5
Drat, Kevin, I thought you were gonna tell me who Catherine Penberthy was.... ;D Corrections, updates always welcome. I have some 'new' Hampton stuff I need to put up - like you I am just trying to find the time inbetween other obligations... How about going to the "Links" board and starting a thread called "Gedcoms" - you can link your GedCom from there, and I will follow... |
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(I am sure we have seen this before.)
)
