Elizabeth Curnow

[tonymitch]

I'm looking for Elizabeth Curnow whom I believe was baptised on 19 March 1820 possibly (and hopefully) in Towednack. She married John Williams in 1840 at Towednack. I have her parents as Thomas Curnow and possibly Phillis Berryman but every attempt I make to verify this or her baptism it all bounces back.

Somewhere I gleaned the information that Phillis was a bit of a girl and had several children out of wedlock by differing fathers.

Any help on this lttle lot would be appreciated.

Tony M

[sue]

Elizabeth Curnow daughter of Thomas Curnow, miner, & Phillis was baptised 19 March 1820 Towednack.

Thomas married Phillis Berriman 2 December 1809. Towednack.

Mary was bptzd 15 July 1810.
Phillis 23 Feb 1812. 2nd Phillis 3 March 1816.
Daughter Jane was bptzd 17 April 1814. 2nd Jane 15 February 1818.
Lystra 25 Nov 1821. Thomas 30 July 1826.
All Towednack.

There is also Eliza bastard of Phillis Berryman 21 October 1810.

Sue

[Cornish Terrier]

Tony - Elizabeth Curnow was baptised 19th March 1820 at Towednack daughter of Thomas Curnow, sexton, and Phillis (nee Berryman).

She was the sixth of eighth children.

John WILLIAMS, miner of Towednack (son of Philip) married Elizabeth CURNOW, spinster of Towednack (daughter of Thomas) 23rd March 1840 at Towednack.
Witnesses were John Green and Wm Ninnis.

John and Elizabeth were both recorded 'of full age' although this is not quite true for Elizabeth.

I know of know children to Elizabeth prior to her marriage however I believe I can solve the puzzle for you.

There were three children to John and Elizabeth Williams:-

John born Towednack about August 1840 was age 10 months at the 1841 Census
Elizabeth Jane born about 1842 at Towednack (your connection with William Furze no doubt )
Margaret born about 1844 at Towednack

I believe it will be the 1851 Census that is causing your confusion with the children.

1851 Census
Tregerrast Lower, Sancreed
John WILLIAMS, head, marr, 31, tin miner, Sancreed
Elizabeth do., wife, marr, 37, miner's wife, Sancreed
Jemima do., daur, unm, 14, Sancreed
John do., son, 11, Towednack
Johanna do., daur, 9, Sancreed
Elizabeth do., daur, 8, Zennor
Margaret do., daur, 6, Towednack
Elizabeth GREEN, daur-in-law, 5, Madron

Note the mix in birthplaces and also the last child.

5th May 1849 Sancreed by Banns
John WILLIAMS, of full age, widower, miner of Tregerras (son of Philip) married Elizabeth GREEN, of full age, of Tregerras (daughter of Benjamin ROWE)
Witnesses: John Toman and James Hosken

Although not stated Elizabeth was also a widow with the naming of her father as Benjamin ROWE being the obvious pointer.

William GREEN married Elizabeth ROWE 23rd December 1841 at Sancreed

The first child in the 1851 Census above was Jemima age 14 and it is slightly confusing as she is recorded as WILLIAMS.

Jemima daughter of Elizabeth ROWE of Poor House was baptised 11th April 1837 at Sancreed

John, Elizabeth and Margaret were all children from John's marriage to Elizabeth Curnow.

Johanna is also recorded as WILLIAMS however that is not correct.

Johannah daughter of William and Elizabeth GREEN of Lower Tregerras was baptised 15th May 1842 at Sancreed

Elizabeth Ann daughter of William and Elizabeth GREEN of Bosullow was baptised 15th March 1846 at Madron (this is the 'daughter-in-law' in the 1851 Census)

So it was not Elizabeth Curnow who had children out of wedlock but rather Elizabeth Rowe.

I am yet to find the burial for Elizabeth (nee Curnow) but I would presume she was buried at Towednack.

And for Sue - children of Thomas and Phillis Curnow:-

Mary bp. 15th July 1810 Towednack
Phillis bp. 23rd February 1812 Towednack **
Jane bp. 17th April 1814 Towednack **
Phillis bp. 3rd March 1816 Towednack
Jane bp. 15th February 1818 and buried 29th April 1818 Towednack
Elizabeth bp. 19th March 1820 Towednack
Lystra bp. 25th November 1821 and buried 30th November 1821 Towednack
Thomas bp. 30th July 1826 Towednack

** There is a Phillis Curnow age 1 buried at Towednack 19th May 1815 but I can find no burial for Jane.

CT

[sue]

Thankyou CT!

Inch by inch I'm getting slightly better with these Curnows!

Need sanity rest from Curnows this weekend I think - and already I think I hear more planes than usual - Battle of Britain airshow down the road this weekend, and some of the planes fly in or out just feet (small exaggeration) over my roof, amazing sight (& sound!) Red Arrows, Patrouille de France (they were "practising" just over my house yesterday afternoon), Spitfires, Lancaster, Moths....

Sue

[tonymitch]

Thanks CT, but I'm sorry to say I already had waded my way through the treacle of the Williams/Rowe/Green family tangle. You are quite correct though, it is ELizabeth Jane (1842) who link me this lively lot.

My problem is working backwards......I have ELizabeth Curnow as having been baptised on 19 March 1820 but not where. I had assumed it was Towednack, but can find no baptism of her listed on the OPC site. In fact there are only three Elizabeth Curnows listed in Baptisms for Cornwall throughout the whole of the decade. However, I now have two further confirmations that my original info was correct...thanks to Sue too. However, where did you find this info? I can't find a thing (mind you, that's not unusual).

Further info I have is that Elizabeth's mother, PHILLIS Curnow nee Berryman who was rather free with her favours and that there were at least two illegitimate children born to her before she married Thomas. (Towednack 1st Dec 1809) Yet again, I can find no positive record of this.

Sue.....thanks, I wanted confirmation of the Thomas/Phillis union....now found it also under Berr I man, rather than Berr Y man. Tried the '%' trick with the OPC but only on Phillis, never thought of the Surname.



Tony M

[tonymitch]

Sue.....You lucky person....Spitfires with the roar of the Merlin engine....sweeter music cannot be found.

Tony M (ex RAF)

[Cornish Terrier]

Tony - there is very little available for Towednack at the moment, particular from 1813 onwards.

The CFHS have published Indexes of Towednack Baptisms to 1840, pre-Civil Registration Marriages and Burials 1813-1837.

All events we quoted can be found in these Indexes.

It is because only the CFHS Indexes are available at the moment that you will not find the information on the OPC site.

You need to be aware that the identity of Thomas Curnow, father of Elizabeth and husband to Phillis, is not yet known.

There is a tangle of Thomas Curnows including, from memory, three who had a wife named Catherine.

As for Phills Berryman - I have left the Jury out on her at least until now.

There are two children baptised to 'a' Phillis but I have never been completely satisfied that it is the same girl who married Thomas Curnow given that one of those children was not baptised until 10 months after that marriage.

John Stevens base son of Phillis Berryman bp. 8th March 1807 Towednack
Eliza base daughter of Phillis Berryman bp. 21st October 1810 Towednack

Given the marriage occurred 2nd December 1809 this does seem just a little strange.

CT

[sue]

Hi Tony

And the Imperial War Museum show is 2 days, so more planes for me tomorrow too!

Thomas Curnow sexton of Towednack is declared as 60, so should be 60 to almost 65, in 1841. I have no burials post 1837 until they start appearing much later on OPC. Pity he had so many girls, & just the one boy, Thomas....

Thomas Curnows are many; yours could be he who was bptzd 18 May 1777 Towednack of Thomas C & Catherine; a Thomas C married Catherine Care 1776; but there are no Catherine daughters to Thomas & Phillis...?

There are lots of Thomases born to a Thomas Curnow & Catherine, & they can't all be to the same couple; then there's Thomas s of Thomas Curnow & Honour Michell bptzd 1782... As CT says, Thomas Curnows are a tangle, trying to tie them & William Curnows to their respective parents is a challenge I am not yet up to! Some die young - e.g. bptzd June 1771 buried June 1771. Then 4 more born 1773, 1777, 1785, 1786; burials 1784, 1785. And we don't know your Thomas was definitely born in Towednack.

Tantalisingly close to birth age to be 60 in 1841 is Thomas Curnow 1stborn of Michael Curnow & Blanch Edwards per the very recent Michael Curnow thread, bptzd Oct 1775 - but not quite right, and names out in your family's girls.

Strictly, looking at Thomas & Phillis' children, I'd be wanting Thomas' mother to be a Jane... But can't immediately see a Thomas & Jane as suitable parents.

Took me ages to sort "my" Thomas Curnow, & he was born post civil registration!!

But at least you have Thomas & Phillis firmly in place now, with their children.

Sue

P.S. Have added short note under new thread, Phillis Berriman.

[Cornish Terrier]

The Thomas Curnows in the latter half of the 18th Century in particular are going to require a long and dedicated effort I think.

There are just too many things that don't add up.

I neglected to mention that I am a great fan of WWII aircraft also.
When I was in the US I visited a couple of excellent Warbird Museums with the two main ones at Oshkosh, Wisconsin and Orlando, Florida.

At Orlando I somehow ended up down behind the airfield where a Mustang was sitting on the tarmac with two men poring over it.

I sat and watched and eventually one of them turned over the engine!

Another Rolls Royce Merlin! ;D

Unfortunately I missed the Lands End Airshow in 1994.

[Cornish Terrier]

BTW - just so you have an idea of the problem.

Thomas CURNOW of Towednack married Catherine PHILLIPS 11th April 1770 at Kenwyn

Thomas CURNOW married Catherine CARE 11th June 1776 at Towednack

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

I neglected to say in my last that Catherine PHILLIPS was a widow when she married Thomas CURNOW at Kenwyn in 1770.

I am not absolutely certain yet but I believe I 'may' have identified her first marriage.

When they married Thomas Curnow and Catherine Phillips both signed with their mark.

In Catherine's case it was in the form of a Capital 'R'.

John PHILLIPS of Kenwyn married Catherine ROWE of Kenwyn 28th January 1762 at Kenwyn.

Catherine ROWE also signed with her mark .............. a Capital 'R'.

It should be noted that the 'R' in each case is very different however they were made almost nine years apart so it is unlikely they would be identical.

This is the only marriage I can find at Kenwyn that could be a link to Thomas Curnow but it is always possible that Catherine was married elsewhere.

Circumstantially it is certainly a good match and if it does prove to be correct then it might help identify Thomas Curnow.

I do need to find a burial for John Phillips also.

An addition - I have checked Kenwyn Burials and can find no sign of John Phillips.

CT