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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 2, 2010 8:01:19 GMT -5
Now why would John and Elizabeth Grills name a daughter using for her second name the surname of John's sister's husband's mother?? That to me seems an extremely tenuous link and currently makes absolutely no sense at all. I am not saying that the author(s) of the book are wrong ............... but I am saying that right at this moment I am not prepared to accept their findings. I think we might be better off to ignore that book for the moment and pursue some independent investigations to see what conclusions we arrive at. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 2, 2010 8:38:53 GMT -5
I think I will throw another spanner into the works! Grace COUCH Grills d/o JOHN and Sarah was baptised 9th September 1827 at EGLOSKERRY John Grills of EGLOSKERRY married Sarah Downing of Boyton 27th June 1820 at Boyton I am thinking we might need to take a look at this bloke to see where it leads. What we have here is the name COUCH as a second name for Grace Grills along with the Parish of EGLOSKERRY and her father's name is JOHN. A whiff of rat odour is beginning to creep in here methinks! Is it possible we have still been looking at the wrong John Grills? Or at least have we the correct John Grills linked to the wrong family? Something is definitely not quite right. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 2, 2010 8:56:13 GMT -5
And now for a further Cat Among the Pigeons! ;D
1851 Census Badharlick, Egloskerry John GRYLLS, 64, head, mar., farmer of 100 acres, STOKE CLIMSLAND Sarah do., 56, wife, mar., Boyton John do., 30, Egloskerry Richard do., 27, Egloskerry GRACE do., 23, Egloskerry Charles do., 21, Egloskerry Mary A do., 19, Egloskerry Elizabeth do., 17, Egloskerry
So the John Grills (Grylls) who married Sarah was born at Stoke Climsland about 1786 or 1787.
He is living at Egloskerry and he named a daughter Grace COUCH Grills.
I think this is telling us that the John Grills who married Rebecca Perry and came to Australia is NOT the brother of Grace Knill Grills.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 2, 2010 9:25:25 GMT -5
Putting aside exactly how the Knill name came to be the above seems to add further 'proof' that the man at BADHARLICK in 1851 with wife Sarah is the John Grills who belongs to this family. We are therefore looking for a baptism record for another John Grills about 1787 with this man being the one who later married Rebecca Perry and came out to Australia. So far I am unable to find this baptism. Of course there is still another possibility. Perhaps we already have the correct baptism and that your John was the son of John and Elizabeth. That would mean that it is the brother of Grace Knill Grills for whom no baptism is found. In fact the more I think about it the more I am inclined to think this might be the case. According to the information I found the other night Tabitha Knill Grills was baptised in the Wesleyan Methodist Circuit in 1796. Although nine years earlier it may be also that this is where John Grills was baptised. We already know there is more than one marriage for a John Grills to someone named Elizabeth but we still need to sort them out properly. And from there we need to bypass the Grace Grills who married John Couch as she is definitely from a different family. CT
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Post by donne on Jun 2, 2010 14:29:07 GMT -5
CT, I quite agree with you that the 1766 birth date for Elizabeth Curtis is probably derived from a LDS rule-of-thumb for the age of the bride at marriage.
However, I don't think that we should be too influenced by the Landulph connection for Elizabeth. If you accept the South Petherwin marriage to be correct, then this parish is most likely to be her birth parish. South Petherwin is up around Launceston and not adjacent to Landulph. So while not dismissing the St Dominick baptism, I don't think proximity to Landulph is significant.
I notice that the Scantelburys seem to have lived at Clifton, one of the larger farms in Landulph. Possibly as a more well-to-do family they sought their brides from farther afield.
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Post by ridgey101 on Jun 3, 2010 2:00:44 GMT -5
CT, Can I first show a bit of ignorance before the belly of the posting. I keep reading where you refer to 'IGI', so what is it? Here endth the ignorance.
The above appears to be 100% correct! Indeed the 'Aussie John' was not Grace's brother.
I certainly muddied the water with the last bit. So I'll try an fill in the 'potholes' and remove the 'Detour signs' and get back to the John.
Here goes, remember the last long and confusing posting with so many John's. The both or in that lot.
I'll work back from Aussie John and Rebecca.
John Grills (Rebecca Perry) son of
John Grills and (Elizabeth Giles) who is the son of
James Grills 1724 and (Mary Bowhay) who is the brother of
John Grills. 1716 (Elizabeth Rickard) who are the parents of
Grace Grills and of course John Grills (Elizabeth Scantlebury)
So this is the John of the Tabitha fame.
Now, James Grills (Mary Bowhay) and John Grills (Elizabeth Rickard) are two of the sons of John Grills and Grace Poad.
Other sons, Charles Grills and William Grills.
Hope that makes sense and unravels the confusion. Ron
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 3, 2010 3:44:45 GMT -5
G'day Ron - yes I was starting to look at the possibility that both sides descended from the Grace Poad marriage as it seemed the most likely scenario. I think by the time I had finished last night I decided that further pursuit there might confuse me (let alonge anyone else) a little more so decided to end where I did. Roger - I would need to check again but the 1760 St Dominick baptism was the nearest 'reasonable' baptism I found. I don't know what coverage there is for South Petherwin but what we have so far is all in the mix. We certainly still need to find a baptism for the second John around 1787 and I think that is possibly the main problem at the moment. Another problem I did not mention is the 1749 marriage of James Grills that Ron has mentioned on more than one occasion. Looking at the Callington site and they show that the marriage of James Grills on the date mentioned was to a Bridget (forgotten the surname right now). That makes me wonder firstly if there is an error in the Callington database. But secondly - there seems so far to be no record that I can find for a marriage to Mary Bowhay and I need to know the origins of that data. James Grills certainly married Mary someone. But this is all healthy discussion and I am sure we will dig out the correct results for Ron in the long run. CT
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Post by ridgey101 on Jun 3, 2010 8:50:14 GMT -5
CT, I think you are right in questioning the Callington Database on James and Mary. Firstly, if you look at the marriage part of it. Apparently, Mary Bowhay married a John Tomms but there is a big glaring mistake. Mary was according to the record married to John T on 4th November 1749 but John T married Mary on 6th October 1750 Now that allows for James Grills to slot into that position, reason being this. Also in the Callington databases I found something that appears to gel. James had two brothers, John and William. So in the St Mellion section it states that William Grills was baptised 30 May 1756 parents James and Mary. James Grills was baptised 12 Oct 1753 parents James and Mary. But if you look at John Grills it states baptised 29 July 1750 with parents John and Elizabeth (but this is not the right John, I think?) So, if you go to the Callington section you find a John Grills baptised 27 Dec 1750 parents James and Mary. Is this the record we are looking for? Is the James and Mary who we think they maybe? I'm thinking there is a good chance they are the right ones. From some of the information I have the dates of the Three brothers match the records in as far as years go and the marriage of James and Mary also matches up with what I have. The problem now is finding some record that can absolutely confirm that Mary married James in 1749 and didn't marry John Tomms as the mixed up dates previously mentioned. Something to ponder over I'm guessing. But of course we cannot forget donne on his quest for answers as well. Being a novice I'm trawling through what I can to try and help (even though this may be of little help,but can only try). Ron
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 3, 2010 13:52:04 GMT -5
Ron - I am inclined to think at the moment that James and Mary are the couple we need. We know from baptismal records that James and Mary were having children in the area, including a John, but it would be nice to find at least an accurate transcription of the marriage or be able to see the entry in the Parish Register. I forgot to answer your question about IGI from your previous post. IGI is the International Genealogical Index created by the Latter Day Saints. It is freely available online but I must warn you that it should be used as a 'rough guide' only. There is a lot of stuff in it that should not be there and even some stuff that should be there can be in error. Unfortunately the IGI is full of misleading entries such as 'born abt' which are usually based on the equation that a male marries at 25 and a female at age 21. Hence the reference to the 1766 birth of Elizabeth. But I won't go right into that now or I will never finish this post! I'm off to get some sleep now as I have another big day ahead. Will try to think a little more about these Grills over the next few days and see what more I can find. CT
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Post by ridgey101 on Jun 4, 2010 8:42:42 GMT -5
Hi Donne, I have been interested in trying to repay the favour for your assistance in helping find John Grills etc. so I have started looking for information in regards to Elizabeth Scantlebury. What I have found is that if you search the net with something like this - scantlebury cornwall england you will be amazed at the sites that come up. There is one in particular that gives you the 'total' history of the Scantlebury family including a family tree dating back to the early 1600's. It also includes dates of birth and baptisms, marriages to whom and where. It also has maiden names etc.
I had a quick browse through it and there is quick a lot of Elizabeth's amongst the family. Now not knowing the layout of Cornwall I'm not sure of the locations mentioned or the parishes referred to in the site. But it may be worth a look see.
There may be better sites to browse from the list but this one caught my eye.
Now, according to the info I have Elizabeth was apparently born or baptised in 1760 approx. and married a John Grills in 1786. It also states that she was born/baptised at St Dominic's. Her marriage to John Grills apparently occurred at Landulph. It also states that she was a widow when she married John and that her maiden name was something along the lines of Courtis/Curtis etc.
Hope this helps and some dates and names gel and things fall into place.
Cheers Ron
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Post by donne on Jun 6, 2010 15:37:21 GMT -5
Ridgey, Thank you very much for your help on the Scantelbury connection. I've done some further digging and this is what I've come up with for the time line of Elizabeth Curtis/Scantelbury/Grills. Elizabeth Curtis was married to James Scantlebury of Landulph in South Petherwin 31 Jan 1780. This is confirmed by the South Petherwin OPC who also tells me that she signed her name 'Cortice'. I surmise the pair of them set up home in Landulph, but unfortunately James died and was buried 25 Jan 1784 in Landulph age 27 (Cornwall OPC website). As far as I can trace, there was no issue of this marriage. Elizabeth the widow then married John Grills of Stoke Climsland in Landulph 23 Apr 1786 (Cornwall OPC website). John and Elizabeth Grills set up home in Stoke Climsland and produced 8 children whose baptism dates have been sent to me by the Stoke Climsland OPC. These births have been previously noted in this thread. The IGI attributes these births to Landulph parish (typical IGI nonsense you often get with a patron submission). For completeness, here is the information sent to me by Di Gibbs, the Stoke Climsland OPC: Child | Father | Mother | Nee | Baptism | Date of Birth | Occupation | Note in Register | Elisabeth Couch | John GRILLS | Elizth | no entry | 14 September 1788 | 23 August | Farmer | Grace | John GRILLS | Elizabeth | no entry | 5 December 1790 | 15 November | Farmer | Anne | John GRILLS | Elizabeth | COURTIS | 19 June 1794 | 11 June | Farmer | Tabitha Knill | John GRILLS | Elizabeth | COURTIS | 11 September 1796 | 24 August | Farmer | Sarah | John GRILLS | Elizabeth | COURTIS | 12 May 1799 | 24 April | Farmer | Benjamin | John GRILLS | Elizabeth | COURTIS | 6July 1801 | same day | Farmer | )twins | Joseph | John GRILLS | Elizabeth | COURTIS | 6 July 1801 | same day | Farmer | )twins | Richard | John GRILLS | Elizabeth | COURTIS | 31 October 1802 | 16 October | Farmer
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My reason for contacting the South Petherwin OPC was to ask if Elizabeth Curtis was baptised in South Petherwin. Since she was married in South Petherwin, I thought that she is most likely to have been born in the parish. However, the OPC tells me that there is no such birth recorded. So it now seems to me very likely that the St Dominick baptism of Elizabeth COURTICE 14 Apr 1760 is the correct one, particularly since Elizabeth signs herself CORTICE in her marriage to James Scantelbury. I hope this is of interest. I enjoyed the chase anyway!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 6, 2010 15:50:09 GMT -5
Thanks Roger - that might help somewhat with our other John Grills with a bit of luck. CT
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Post by ridgey101 on Jun 8, 2010 6:23:35 GMT -5
Hi CT and donne, Good to see you have found some answers regarding Elizabeth Scantlebury. In regards to a part that has been troubling us in relation to James Grills marriage to Mary Bowhay. Well, I have now found a possible solution to the riddle. I have located a Transcription in regards to the Marriage of Mary Bowhay or should I say a couple of Mary Bowhay's. But in particular one that gives us the proper Groom's names and dates and locations. But first, it appears that the Callington Hertiage records are incorrect (as we were contemplating). The transcriptions are from the Cornwall Family History Society and one of the two can be referred directly back to the Callington database, and appears to be right. Mary Bowhay married Charles Walkey on 24th December 1750 at Stoke Climsland Cornwall. The other is of more interest to me and it states: Mary Bowhay married James Grills on 4th November 1749 at Callington Cornwall. (callington Hertiage database states a John Tomms). ;D Now, it's finding birth or baptism date and location and the date and location of burial. There is burial information indicating Callington 1st March 1797 but according to some of the information I have is that James and Mary were married there but James died St Mellion, Mary is unknown. Another search of things also turned up information on John Grills and Elizabeth Rickard (Parents of John Grills who married Elizabeth Scantlebury) I located 'cornish Parish Registers Vol17.- St.Mellion 1558-1812 and in amongst these records I found reference to John Grills (Grylls/Gryles) married Elizabeth Rickard at St .Mellion. In addition to that record and in the same Volume17 I found reference to John Grills married Grace Poad at St Mellion. John and Grace are the parents of John Grills (E.Rickard) and James Grills (M.Bowhay) I'll go back to my trawling through the information and some more websites and see what else I can drag up. Cheers Ron
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 8, 2010 9:02:04 GMT -5
Well done Ron The bits and pieces are gradually coming to light so we should be able to sit back and fit them all together soon to make sure the joins are right. CT
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Post by ridgey101 on Jun 28, 2010 7:03:10 GMT -5
Hi CT, Back from a bit of an absence, tryingto do a heap of other things in trying to tie it all together and searching for some missing pieces. Oh! and the world cup didn't help much as well. I have been putting together the family tree and checking that the dates all line up as they should. So far so good and it all seems to be falling into place just nicely. As I mentioned previously I have located a marriage record of Mary Bowhay and James Grills and at the right timeframe, that was a positive but then it came to a bit of a dead end butnot totally. My problem now is tracking the right line as I have a couple of ways to travel. Not knowing where Mary Bowhay was born or baptised it is a bit of a lucky dip, and not knowing where places are in Cornwall I can only chase the two options and hopefully drag something positive. Now, see if this makes sense in how I might approach this. Working through all the records I have already I have basically taken a stab in the dark and worked on Mary being married around the age of 21 years to 26 years of age it allows me to have the two options. I have the record of Mary being married in Callington. Now taking this as a starting point and working backwards. I have a record of a Mary Bowhay born/baptised 25th April 1723 at Stoke Climsland. Parents being Sampson and Judith. I also have a record of a Mary Bowhay born/baptised 10th August1726 at St Stephen by Launceston. Parent being John but no mention of mother. Now, taking into account the two records which in your opinion would be the most likely or the better to hunt. Stoke Climsland or Launceston? The other thing is that I have a couple of dates and burials relating to Mary Bowhay, again can you suggest the better one to hunt. Burial at Northhill in 1777 or Petrockstow in 1792. 1777 would make her between 51 and 54 years old at time of death. 1792 would make her between 66 and 69 years old. James Grills died in 1782 at St Mellion. Is Northhill or Petrockstow anywhere near St Mellion? Wow, I have just read over the above and it sounds like dribble and very wishywashy, open ended and very wide boundries. Hopefully, you can decipher the above and make any suggestions that may help. Cheers Ron
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