Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 10, 2015 2:20:13 GMT -5
Richard married Harriet Ann Bartle (approx. 1872 probably Crowan area)
More details that I had not pursued! However after a little time viewing Census and other records I have found a couple of things to add for you.
Richard Dunn and Harriet Ann Bartle were married in the September Qtr of 1869 - Redruth Registration District. (FreeBMD) The marriage record does not appear in the OPC database so might have taken place at Illogan or Redruth or else one of the Non-conformist Chapels or the Registry Office. It did not occur at Camborne where they were living in 1871.
In the 1871 Census Harriet stated she was age 20 however that was not quite correct. She was in fact baptized at Wendron 26th March 1848 daughter of James (a carpenter) and Jane Bartle.
Should I find anything else of interest I will post it later.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 11, 2015 0:51:19 GMT -5
Yes, I agree James Bartle and Jane Oliver were the parents. I found 10 children for them using a combination of OPC/PR and Census records but could could not find a baptism for son Thomas. Nine of the children were baptized at Wendron and according to the Census all, including Thomas, were born at Wendron. Thomas first appears in the 1851 Census age 6 and then in 1861 he is age 13. But the 1861 Census record is well and truly messed up with all family members having their ages incorrectly recorded. In 1851 James was age 43 and Jane age 40 yet in 1861 they had barely aged with James recorded as 44 and Jane about 43. The only possible birth record I can find for Thomas in FreeBMD is the June Qtr of 1844 so I guess that must be him. It is always possible the Vicar neglected to add the record to the register or that he was baptized many years later.
I think Margaret was a granddaughter of the "mysterious" Christopher Trewhela which makes her my first cousin 8 times removed! Her father was Thomas Trewhela baptized 14 Dec 1691 at Wendron, son of "Xtopher" (Family Search) and his 2nd wife, Elinor Collins. Margaret's mother was Mary, but I don't have a last name for her.
So far, I have not been able to link the Sampsons of Breage to "my" Sampson branch other than via marriage. I do have one DNA match to this line.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 24, 2017 0:39:28 GMT -5
Her father was Thomas Trewhela baptized 14 Dec 1691 at Wendron, son of "Xtopher" (Family Search) and his 2nd wife, Elinor Collins
Zib - this is perhaps a logical conclusion but I am reluctant to accept the link especially given the state of the Crowan registers prior to 1743 and more particularly during the early period when Thomas might be expected to have been born. If this Thomas was the father of Margaret then he would have been about age 29 or 30 at marriage which is no problem but the naming of his known or suspected children does raise a query!
Thomas and Mary had two children that I am aware of with both being daughters - Margaret (no baptism found) married William Sampson and Grace (bp. 2nd February 1724 Crowan). This seems quite strange if Thomas were the son of Christopher Trewhella given that there are only two known females in his family - his mother and a sister who were both named Elinor!!!
As you have said in the past, there were no actual "rules" about this. I look at the names of William Harvey and Ann Trewhela's children and don't understand why they have a Martin, a Wilmot, a William and an Ann, but no Thomas or Martha. William Jr and wife Mary Hocken did name 2 sons Thomas, but still no Martha? Maybe with Ann being one of the younger children, the parents' names had already been brought forward plenty of times by her siblings?
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 26, 2017 14:14:18 GMT -5
As you have said in the past, there were no actual "rules" about this.
Quite true, but there are multiple factors involved here that warrant some caution including the state of the Crowan PRs. Thomas may well turn out to have been the son of Christopher and Eleanor Trewhela but his wife was named Mary yet the only two 'known' children were daughters who were named Margaret and Grace. Unfortunately we don't know who 'Mary' was and those names may have been from her family but even so it seems odd that at least one of those daughters was not named Eleanor or Mary.
Another factor to take into account is the family of Trewhela als Polglase or Polglase als Trewhela. Records for this family can be found at nearby Breage during the period from about 1665 to 1715 with the surname often alternating between Polglase and Trewhela. For example in 1692 John Polglase and Elenor Hoskin were married yet their first child was baptized to John and Eleanora Trewheela. The names suggest possible links to the hamlet of Trewhela in Cury Parish which appears on some maps as Polglase but the fact the family was in Breage gives food for thought. In Breage the family is linked to Pengersick and, possibly, Rengy (Rinsey) which I think are both in the south of the parish with the latter place offering a further possible connection to William Trewhela and his namesake son who were mentioned in the book 'Early Stuart Mariners'. If memory serves the two Williams were at Rinsey around the 1630s and a William Trewhela 'and wife' are mentioned in the 1660-1664 Hearth Tax at 'Ringie'. And the elder William may possibly have originated at St Erth which then provides possible links to the family at Towednack.
There is much more to all this than immediately meets the eye!
I have finally managed to review all of my DNA match information with a late one mentioning a Trewhela connection. I seek a Grace Trewhela supposedly of Crowan born circa 1809 wife of Thomas Clymow Brown and mother or grandmother of a William Thomas Clymo Brown born 1840ish. Any input will be appreciated as I have no Grace on my radar.
Last Edit: Feb 10, 2017 21:30:05 GMT -5 by zibetha
Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 11, 2017 1:50:51 GMT -5
Aha!! ..... Finally we get to good old Thomas Clymow Brown!! He, and more particularly his wife Grace Trewhela have been a thorn in my side for many years but perhaps finally DNA might open an obscure overgrown path that might lead us to her origins.
I have tried many times to identify Grace but have always come to a seemingly impenetrable wall. There is some discussion on this problem elsewhere on this forum but I will outline what I know once again. There are a number of discrepancies in the source information but ...........
Thomas Clymow Brown, a letter carrier of Trannack, married Grace Trewhela of Chyandour November 19th 1837 at Gulval. Thomas stated that he was a bachelor and that his father was Abraham Brown, an innkeeper whilst Grace stated she was a spinster and that her father was John Trewhela, a butcher. Subsequent records indicate that Grace was born at Crowan about 1809. The only known John Trewhela who was a butcher and who could have been the father of Grace was the husband of Mary Holman but he had a daughter Grace Holman Trewhela baptized in 1800 and she survived until 1852. Further complications with this link are that John and Mary had a daughter named Martha baptized in November 1809. Now it is possible that there were two daughters named Grace but the second would have to have been born in 1808 or 1810/11 given John and Mary also baptized children 11th July 1807 and 8th August 1812. The other possibility is that Grace's father is incorrectly recorded on her marriage record.
Before any further cogitation on this I will outline the remainder of what I know about Grace and her husband.
Thomas Clymow Brown, as stated above, claimed that he was a bachelor when he married Grace Trewhela however subsequent research showed that he was actually a widower. Thomas was baptized at Camborne 13th February 1808 to Abraham Brown and Jenefer Quintrall who married at Camborne 13th July 1801. There was an earlier son named Thomas Clymo and a daughter Elizabeth Bennetts Brown also baptized at Camborne. Thomas Clymow Brown was first married at Madron 14th April 1832 to Elizabeth Richards Stevens but there appear to have been no children. (I have checked the signiature in both marriage records and it is undoubtedly the same person.) Elizabeth Stevens was baptized at Zennor 28th August 1808 to Andrew Stevens and Elizabeth Richards and she was buried at Penzance 7th May 1737. Thomas then married Grace Trewhela some six months later with this marriage producing three children:-
Elizabeth Jane Brown born 1839 Penzance - GRO Index shows mother's maiden name as TREWELLA Thomas Clymo Brown born 1840 Penzance - GRO Index shows mother's maiden name as TREWHELLA Abraham Brown born 1844 Penzance R.D. - GRO Index shows mother's maiden name as TREWHELLA (death also registered March Qtr 1844)
In 1851 Grace Brown appears in the Census as a laundress at the Royal Hotel in Truro. She stated she was married, age 43 and born at Crowan. In this same Census Thomas Brown was recorded as 'House Keeper' at 75 Boscawen Row in Truro with children Jane and Thomas.
In the 1861 Census Thomas and Grace Brown are at 113 Boscawen Row Truro with son William (age 16) for whom I can find no GRO/FreeBMD Birth registration. By 1871 Grace is a widow still living at Boscawen Row but this time with son William now recorded as age 19 and granddaughter Elizabeth age 10.
Interesting to note that in 1871 Grace says she was age 67 thus reflecting a birth year of about 1803/4 whilst in 1861 she was age 54!!
Elizabeth Jane Brown appears to have married James Morriss at St Clement 27th December 1858. Thomas Clyma Brown married Emma Jane Williams at St Clement 2nd September 1860.
Thomas Brown appears to have died in the Truro R.d. in 1868 at the age of 59 and Grace in 1893 age 82. Once again the information leads us to a different birth year for Grace!
I will be interested in any potential links provided by your DNA match and in the meantime will try and find more information to fill in some of the gaps.
AHA!!! - I just had another look at the GRO index based on the 1871 Census and have found the birth record for William Brown1! His birth was registered in the December Qtr of 1851 with mother's maiden name recorded as TRENHELA!! William's age in the 1861 Census should therefore be either 9 or 10 and if you have a close look at the original Census page you can see that it has been altered. The first digit which appears to be a '1' has actually been scribbled out and what looks like a '6' is actually '10' with the '1' written above but just touching the '0' thus making it look like a number six.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 11, 2017 7:06:10 GMT -5
Well that still leaves a bit of distance to cover before finding a connection to Grace herself. Having spent a little time on this since my last post I have come up with the following that might give some ideas.
Thomas William Brown was baptized at Mithian 18th June 1872 to William Brown and Maria Bennett. He was married as William Thomas Brown at St Allen in 1896 to Harriett Louisa Tippett. Aside from any further generations down to your contact that gives us the following names to deal with - Brown, Bennett and Tippett. Maria Bennett was baptized at Bodmin in 1853 to John and Jane Bennett of Union House (formerly of Helland). The GRO index indicates that Jane's maiden name was Strongman but I can find no marriage as yet to confirm if it is the same family.
If we move back on the Brown line from William we of course then get to Grace Trewhela but the connection could go back even further than that on the Brown line. Unfortunately I have been only able to get back as far as Abraham Brown and Jenefer Quintrall who were married at Camborne in 1801.
Having read this a few times and re-reviewed the information my match provided on her tree, her line is actually from the marriage of Thomas Clymo Brown and Emma Jane Williams of Camelford. Their son, who was her great-grandfather, William Thomas Clymo Brown 1861, married Elizabeth Turner of Lancashire at Wigan in 1894. Other family branches are all from Lancashire. So, the names Bennett and Tippett won't be relevant, and I can't think of any connections I have to Camelford. Even if the link turns out to be via the Brown family, I am still curious as to Grace's identity; It's hard to see how she could be John and Mary's daughter.
I putting the Bennett/Bennatt(s) name back in play! Thomas Clymo Brown was the grandson of Edward Quintrell and Sarah Bennatts. If Sarah was the daughter of Johnson Bennetts and Elizabeth Waters, then she was the sister-in-law of my 5x great-grandmother, Peternel Williams (widow of Ralph Bartle) whose 2nd husband was Richard Bennetts.