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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 2, 2011 0:07:47 GMT -5
G'day Snydly - sounds like you have made a sensible decision! I have just looked at this again and still have concerns. Firstly, I think the 1849 burial is the correct one based on the information we have from the 1841 Census and also fromd details of his children. Last child, Elizabeth, was baptised St Ives Wesleyan Methodist Circuit 2nd June 1845 age 5 weeks so John was still living around the middle of 1845. Based on his age then the most obvious and best match for a baptism is that in 1802 at St Ives of the son of Thomas and Grace (nee Bawden) Richards. But this is still where I have concerns. The children of Thomas and Grace were:- Thomas (1783) Edward (1786) Grace (1788) Francis (1791) Grace (1792) Francis Pearce (1796) John (1802) I would certainly expect to see the names GRACE, Edward or Francis appear amongst the children of John and Mary before James, Jane, William or Elizabeth. The names of both parents of Mary appear - John and Ann/Nancy - as well as her sister Margaret Noall Warren. And, of course, first daughter was named Mary. So I find it more than a little unusual that the name of John's mother, in particular, should not appear when there are two other daughters. Given the only other baptism which seems remotely possible was the son of John and Ann over at Phillack in November 1801 then it seems we may have no alternative but to accept the baptism at St Ives. I remain sceptical but you should probably investigate the family of Thomas and Grace a little further. It might be interesting to find marriages for the other children of Thomas and Grace and see what names appear amongst their children. CT
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Post by snydly on Mar 2, 2011 1:45:09 GMT -5
Thanks for the Support.
I will investigate further and see what trouble I get into this time :-)
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 2, 2011 8:34:13 GMT -5
Nothing ventured ... nothing gained! There does not seem to be another candidate anywhere for your John Richards but the family of Thomas and Grace just does not seem right to me. Like I say - worth the effort to chase some of the other children and see what names they used. CT
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Post by snydly on Mar 27, 2011 20:26:11 GMT -5
One thing you could help me with again is with the Richards. I don't have access to any records for St. Ives 1901 - 1916. In this time some very tragic events happened to my Grandfathers family, and I recently saw a Barnoon Cemetary transcribed head stone with the following: Richards - John 12/9/1899 5w and Evelyn 31/7/1906 5 children of Edward Webb and Annie Richards
Richards - Florrie wife of Horace Case daughter of Edward & Annie Richards 8/2/1931 28 also Edward Webb Richards 5/11/1870–7/3/1962 Annie R. 9/6/1876–7/5/1965
I was am currently aware of the family as such and I have numerous sources to prove it as such:
Father: Edward Webb Richards 1870 – 1962 Mother: Annie Trevarthen 1876 – 1965 Edward Webb Richards 1898 – 1957 John Richards 1899 – 1899 Florence Richards 1902 – 1931 Evelyn Richards 1905 – 1906 Possible second Evelyn in 1911 Census John Richards 1911 – died young? Gleaned from 1911 Census. Alice Mary Richards 1916 – 1990
My question is this ... there must have been 3 to 5 more children who died in infancy. How can I prove such using regular records, and information available from the CRO? to help with the following problem "Richards - John 12/9/1899 5w and Evelyn 31/7/1906 5 children of Edward Webb and Annie Richards".
We dealt with some of this in another post in Dec 2009, but I just found a possible greater tragedy with that headstone transcription which is not a part of my mother's oral history.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 28, 2011 4:05:00 GMT -5
Another 5 children died in infancy ! No - you can put your mind at rest on that one! '5' refers to the age of Evelyn when she died. In the 1911 Census I believe Evelyn was age 5 and as the Census was taken around April (from memory) I estimated that she may have been born in the latter half of 1905 or early 1906. It appears now that her age in that Census may have been incorrect and that she should actually have been age 4. Looking at the Census image again and she is very clearly recorded as age '5 years'. The Census was taken in April 1911 and required:- NAME AND SURNAME of every Person, whether Member of Family, Visitor, Boarder, or Servant, who (1) passed the night of Sunday, April 2nd, 1911, in this dwelling and was alive at midnight, or (2) arrived in this dwelling on the morning of Monday, April 3rd, not having been enumerated elsewhere. As the earlier Evelyn died in July 1906 the second girl could not have been born until the second half of 1906 which means she would only have been a little over 4 years old at the time of the 1911 Census. A little pedantic maybe but ....... The children as I now have them are:- Edward Webb born 7th August 1898 and baptised 26th September 1898 (residence 11 Bedford Road) John born 6th August 1899 and baptised 10th September 1899 (residence 11 Bedford Road) Died 12th September 1899 and buried 17th September 1899 age 5 weeks. (Most unusual - five days between death and burial ) Evelyn born 1901 (FreeBMD June Qtr 1901 Penzance R.D. Vol 5c Page 215) Died 31st July 1906 and buried 3rd August 1906 age 5 of Bedford Road Florence born 1902 Evelyn - I cannot find any reference to a birth for Evelyn in FreeBMD. There is not even a record for a daughter with Evelyn as a second name. But she does appear in the 1911 Census plain as day! John born 1911 (age one month in April 1911) Alice Mary born 22nd May 1916 So there is still the problem of the birth details of the second Evelyn but you don't have to worry about chasing 'phantom infants'. CT
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Post by sue on Mar 28, 2011 7:43:25 GMT -5
I don't know if this helps re 2nd Evelyn Richards. Haven't tried quite this approach before.... FBMD has 4 girl births Penzance RD in the period following the death of 1st Evelyn Richards: Louisa Richards Sep Q 1906 Mary Bevan Richards Dec Q 1906 Catherine Martin Richards Mar Q 1907 Millie Richards Jun Q 1907 I can find no deaths registered for these 4 girls pre 1911 census. Millie was baptized (OPC) to Thomas & Mary, Foxhole. Catherine seems to be found 1911 @ Crowlas Ludgvan with Silas & Rhoda. Mary Bevan seems to be found 1911 with John & Eliz Back Rd St Ives. Louisa I cannot find 1911. So: could Louisa be known as Evelyn, for family reasons? I know little about the finer detail of birth regs; I see Louisa is registered on page 196; the Penzance birth regs for Sep Q 1906 cover pages 193 to 224. 32 pages in total; Louisa is on the 4th of these 32 pages, which in total cover 13 weeks. Hypothesising: baby Louisa was born/registered early July 1906 before 1st Evelyn died 31 July 1906. The family changed the baby's name in common usage, if not in law. Why the family said in 1911 the child was 5 when I believe she was 4.75 in April 1911 I would venture may be one of those many age slips made on censuses, even in the relatively more literate/numerate times of 1911.... Sue
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Post by snydly on Mar 29, 2011 0:55:06 GMT -5
Thanks for helping clear most of this problem up ... kind of embarrassed about the .... '5' refers to the age of Evelyn when she died. I was posting late in the evening and was tired I think
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Mar 29, 2011 1:08:12 GMT -5
No required Snydly - some of those MIs can be a little ambiguous. I would have my doubts about Louisa being Evelyn. It has not been proven incorrect so is still a consideration but I would not bet money on it. There are many reasons why you might not find Louisa in 1911. 1. Her family were not in England 2. Perhaps the search criteria is not wide enough for the possible errors in transcription. 3. She was recorded under a family name which is a colloquialism of Louisa. 4. Her name was missed by the transcriber. 5. Her whole family is missing because that particular page is missing. (This certainly happens from time to time with Ancestry) And there are two other items to consider regarding FreeBMD - Evelyn's birth has been missed or Louisa's death has been missed. Remember also that FreeBMD is not yet 100% complete so that might explain the missing entries. CT
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Post by snydly on Jan 25, 2017 11:09:19 GMT -5
Ok Time to revisit this 1911 Census for Edward Webb Richards Family:
Looking at the Census Image on Ancestry again I realized that for some reason the Two dead children were included with their age upon death. Lets go line by line through the Census info:
Line 1: Edward Webb Richards Head Age 40 Married 13 years Occupation Painter Builder Employer Born: St. Ives Cornwall Line 2: Annie Richards Wife Age 34 Married 13 years 4 children born alive, 2 children living, 2 children who have died Born: St. Erth Cornwall Line 3: Edward Webb Richards Son Age 12 Occupation School Born St. Ives Cornwall Line 4: John Richards Son Age one month Occupation none Born St. Ives Cornwall (This is John Richards who dies in child birth in 1899 - mistakenly included in census page) Line 5: Evelyn Richards Daughter Age 5 Occupation none Born St. Ives Cornwall (This is Evelyn Richards born 1901 and dies July 31, 1906 buried in Barnoon Cemetary) Line 6: Florence Richards Daughter Age 8 Occupation School Born St. Ives Cornwall Line 7: Jamie Peters Servant Age 24 Single Occupation General Servant(Domestic) Born St. Ives Cornwall Conclusion: For some reason the two dead children where written down in the census information, note all the children listed in birth order as well. So my new family tree content is: Father: Edward Webb Richards 1870 – 1962 Mother: Annie Richards (nee Trevarthen) 1876 – 1965 Edward Webb Richards 1898 – 1957 John Richards 1899 – 1899 Evelyn Richards 1901 – 1906 Florence Richards 1902 – 1931 Alice Mary Richards 1916 – 1990
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 25, 2017 14:32:11 GMT -5
Well I have to say that it is the first time I can recall having ever seen this! The Census clearly shows that there were only four living children born to this family and that in 1911 only two of those were still alive and two dead. And, as you have described, all four children are recorded in the 1911 Census even though two had died! Nice to have the puzzle cleared up! CT
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Post by bazza on Jan 26, 2017 5:32:35 GMT -5
Hi guys - thought I'd stick my beak in!
You have to remember that the images we get for the 1911 census are the ones completed by the actual householder, and not the government-employed enumerators (which is all we get for the other years). Edward and Annie were just diligently recording all the children they had had, though I'm sure the enumerators books would not have included the deceased children. It's one of the bonuses of the 1911 census. I have heard of this happening before, but never come across it in my own family research.
The GRO's new birth index confirms the following children for Edward and Annie (née Trevarthen) Richards: - Edward Webb Richards, Sep 1898, Penzance, vol. 5c, page 224 - John Richards, Sep 1899, Penzance, vol. 5c, page 214 - Evelyn Richards, Jun 1901, Penzance, vol. 5c, page 215 - Florence Richards, Jun 1902, Penzance, vol. 5c, page 200 - Alice Mary Richards, Jun 1916, Penzance, vol. 5, 348
So I think you can be pretty happy with what you've concluded!
Cheers,
Baz
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Post by snydly on Jan 27, 2017 1:33:22 GMT -5
Thx Bazza ... glad I have finally nailed this down. Happy and sad at the same time, given the circumstances.
Last week I ordered up the Birth Cert. for Evelyn Richards (first one I have ordered to confirm information) I will share the information here to help firm up the last details for the family.
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Post by snydly on Feb 16, 2017 7:10:31 GMT -5
Birth Cert for Evelyn Richards: Born 21 April 1901, Bedford Road St. Ives to Edward Webb Richards and Annie Richards formerly Trevarthen, House Painter (Master) Registered 20 May 1901.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 16, 2017 7:42:09 GMT -5
Thanks for posting that information Snydly ..... but I do have one question. The GRO Index shows that the birth was registered in the June Qtr of 1902 yet the information you have quoted from the certificate shows the birth and the registration both occurred in 1901! Is this a typo? CT
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Post by snydly on Feb 17, 2017 23:45:46 GMT -5
From CT's Post on March 28, 2011 above:
Evelyn born 1901 (FreeBMD June Qtr 1901 Penzance R.D. Vol 5c Page 215) Died 31st July 1906 and buried 3rd August 1906 age 5 of Bedford Road
You quoted the correct GRO index 6 years ago as: June Qtr 1901 Penzance R.D. Vol 5c Page 215 ... this is the certificate I ordered.
Too many irons in the fire CT :-) ... thanks for your help.
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