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Post by Mal on Oct 20, 2009 6:06:52 GMT -5
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Post by trencrom on Oct 26, 2009 7:19:55 GMT -5
Does not look like Samson to me.
Can't recognise any of the quartered arms -- the one in top left is usually that of the family name itself, and the others are generally of heiresses who married into the family. You might have to check an ordinary of arms to resolve this one.
Trencrom
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Post by Mal on Oct 26, 2009 14:41:49 GMT -5
Not sure about this at all, will have to see about the College of Arms. It doesn't have the look of those "fake" ones that people buy on internet, i.e. "Your Family Coat of Arms" etc, it has the look of something authentic although I can't tell for the life of me what! So the top dexter is the original family and the others follow... very odd. A correction to the Sampson- it is indeed not Sampson but the "wildman" a not too common heraldic supporter. Have searched all over the place and found nothing similar to any of these charges that would make sense. Yet again my ancestors leave these puzzles!!!  |
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Post by lipkatatar on Nov 5, 2009 20:25:04 GMT -5
I recognised this immediately. My f*g at Eton, Peregrine Bertie, had it embroidered on his underpants.
It is the arms of the Willoughby de Eresby family; an ancient Barony. (pronounced Willubbee Deerzbee)
Different mambers of the family have variations on this theme for their Arms.
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Post by Mal on Nov 6, 2009 6:30:54 GMT -5
Now that is odd, old chap. Why would an ancestor of mine be having that engraved c1955? There is no connection I know of to this family at all. On doing some investigation there do seem to be striking similarities with a number of coats pertinent to this family!!! How bizarre? |
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Post by Mal on Nov 6, 2009 8:02:08 GMT -5
PS---- is it remotely possible that way back in the mists of time D'Eresby pronouncied "dee(r)zby" became corrupted into Davey and hence to Davies?
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Post by lipkatatar on Nov 6, 2009 11:41:25 GMT -5
It is probably more likely that a female of the D'Eresby family married into the Davies family. Technically, the right to Arms was normally only inherited through the female line when there were no male heirs, but it appears to have been common practice for Arms to be adopted through the female line even when there were male siblings.
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Post by Mal on Nov 6, 2009 13:14:11 GMT -5
The problem is that as far as I can go back on the Davies line, i.e. c1799 they don't seem to have been exactly "landed gentry" !!! My brickwall, William Davies is described as being a sewerage labourer on one census!!! Ha ha!!! Poor chap, no disrespect to him attended but it doesn't seem much the stuff of armorial rolls somehow! The two mysterious quarterings need to be resolved, and on further thought the top quarterings show Willoughby on the sinster i.e. female side, so your theory may be correct- what it doesn't explain is the bottom quarterings 3, being Bertie and 4 a mystery. |
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Post by tonymitch on Nov 7, 2009 12:36:30 GMT -5
Don't know so much about that Malcolm......I have always considered the aristocracy to be very adept at purveying manure especially the bovine variety. Remember that the peasantry were kept in order by the use of what these days is termed the 'Mushroom' style of management......."Keep them in the dark and feed them liberally with the excrement of bulls".
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Post by lipkatatar on Nov 7, 2009 21:42:26 GMT -5
The Willoughby d'Eresby baronage was one of the few that could pass through the female line. In the mid 16th century Katherine Willoughby, the 12th Baroness married Richard Bertie and the Baronage passed to the Bertie family. The three battering rams was the Bertie Arms.
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Post by Mal on Nov 8, 2009 7:36:48 GMT -5
Okay, so we seem to have something going on here.... perhaps...! What would be interesting would be to identify the quarterings in 1 and 4, 4 is particularly difficult to work out- I'm not sure whether they be feathers, oak leaves, trefoils or heraldic carrots!!! You are quite right about the battering rams and the Bertie connection. If you look at the arms of the 21 Baroness they supporters are similar, the charge is that of Bertie too. I read somewhere that the supporters may also be linked to the Kendall family. We do have one possible Thomas Gendall descendant of Alexander Gendall/Kendall. I don't know, it all seems a bit like clutching at straws! What's annoyring is that whatever the reason for this turning up on a piece of paper in an envelope amongst the private effects of my family may be, it would be nice to be able to identify them anyway for posterity. I did think those arms had an authentic look about them, i.e. not those "your family arms" types you can purchase on internet. What isn't clear is the connection to Cornwall... again perhaps... other than some very, very ancient links indeed. How come would my ancestor be able to draw these arms so accurately? Why would people in my family from the older generation recognise them without being able to say what or why? It's all a bit too "Barry Lyndon". |
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Post by lipkatatar on Nov 9, 2009 11:20:52 GMT -5
I think we are near a solution.
The lattice work arms and the "wild man of the woods" both come from the arms of Lord Willoughby who founded the Willoughby d'Eresby line when he married Alice, the daughter of Lord d'Eresby, towards the end of the 13th Century.
The Bertie "battering ram" arms were added with the Marriage of Katherine Willoughby and Richard Bertie (died 1582).
The other bottom quatrering is the arms of the Wynn's of Carnarvon. Robert Bertie, Duke of Ancaster (died 1723) married Mary, daughter of Sir Richard Wynn, Bart. of Gwydyr in Carnarvon. The Wynns had descent from many Welsh Kings. The Wynn arms were normally three eagles but some had three fleur-de-lys.
The final top quartreing appears to be that of the Burrell Family. Priscilla Bertie (died 1838) married Peter Burrell, Lord Gwydyr (died 1820). Peter Burrell was a founder the MCC in 1787: do you have any cricketers in your family?
The arms you have either belong to Peter Burrell, after his marrige to Priscilla, or to one of his descendents.
If there is a link to the Davies family it will be found within the last 250 years.
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Post by lipkatatar on Nov 9, 2009 13:31:24 GMT -5
I just found the following description of the Burrell/Gwidyr arms on ancestry.com. The sketch you have lacks the crest, and you appear to have the fleur-de-lys rather than eagles, but it seems to confirm that the arms you have are those of Peter Burrell, or one of his descendants. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Burrell Baron Gwydyr ARMS: Quarterly. 1st, Vert (green) three plain shields Argent (silver); 2nd, Or (gold), fretty Azure (blue); 3rd, Argent (silver) three battering rams barways in pale Proper (natural color), headed and garnished Azure (blue); 4th, those of OWEN GWYNEDD, Prince of North Wlaes; Vert green) three eagles, displ. In fesse Or (gold). Crests 1st: A naked arm embowed Proper (natural color) holding a branch of laurel, Vert (green); 2nd: A Saracen's head couped and affronti Proper (natural color) ducally crowned Or (gold) Supporters Dexter. a pilgrim or friar, vested in russet with his crutch and rosary, or; Sinister, a savage, wreathed about the temples and waist with ivy all Proper (natural color). Motto Animus non deficit aequus. freepages.family.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~heraldry/bga_burnes_burrell.html |
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Post by Mal on Nov 9, 2009 15:37:40 GMT -5
It does seem far too accurate to be a coincidence but all of this does present the mystery of why they were to be engraved in 1955 by my g-grandfather!!!
People don't engrave other people's coats-of-arms for fun, certainly not pay for them. Perhaps he was drawing them on behalf of someone else? I don't know, it's all odd. Although Burrells are found in Cornwall, the only link between Peter Burrell (named above) is that he was MP for Launceston, but that doesn't mean anything- he may never have visited the place. I don't know. Unless we have an outrageous case of an alias here, or something that was perhaps "brushed under a carpet" I am completely clueless as to why and where.
The other consideration is that we have about a 200 year timespan between the origin of the arms and the engraving incident.
Flummoxed!
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Post by tonymitch on Nov 10, 2009 10:59:46 GMT -5
Probably a complete red herring, or as it is Cornwall related perhaps it should be a pink pilchard.......but.....Have you considered the 'important' people around at the time the drawing was done? The High Sheriff seems to have been Lt/Cdr David Verney who was married to Mary Kathleen Boscawen daughter of Viscount Falmouth.
Mary Kathleen's grandmother was Kathleen Douglas-Pennant daughter of Baron Penrhyn who I'm almost certain were related to the Gwydyrs via the Myddletons/Lyttletons (of Humphrey fame) and I note also a relationship to the Glynnes of Hawarden.
Worth having a look at?
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