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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 12, 2007 13:12:53 GMT -5
Where (e.g.) L300 is mentioned it means 300 Pounds.
GB15/18 99 year lease on lives of Wm., Thos., & Mat. Trewheela. Consideration L151: rent 7/0d. Parties named: 1. Sir Peter FORTESCUE, Wood, Devon & his wife Arnye. 2. Jas. TREWHEELA Towednack, yeo.: property involved: Amellibery (Amalebrea), Towednack. 3/NOV/1676
GB/15/19 99 year lease on lives of Martyn & Thomas TREWHEELA. consideration L40: rent 7/0d. Parties named: 1 Humprhy NOY, Carnanton* & Eliab. HARVEY, London esquires: 2 Jas. TREWHEELA, Towednack, yeo. Property: Chylasson 31/May/1658 * near Newquay. Humphry, son of William NOYE of Pendrea, St. Buryan. Wm. Attorney General.
GB15/20 99 year lease on lives of Jas. & Jn. TREWHEELA, yeo. both of Towednack and Elizabeth WARREN. Consideration: L110: rent 7/0d. Parties: Eliab. HARVEY, London & Humphry NOY, Carnanton esquires.: 2 Jn. QUICK, miller and Jas. TREWHEELA, yeo. both of Towednack. Property: land in village of Nancledra, Towednack. 31/MAY/1658.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 12, 2007 13:20:32 GMT -5
GB15/1 Release: Consideration, L400: Parties: 1 Jn., Marquis of WINCHESTER, Henry POWLETT, Lord Edward POWLETT and Lord Charles POWLETT, Rob. HODDER, Wembley, Middlesex, Thomas CAPON, Taunton, Somerset, gents.: 2. William NOYE, Lincoln's Inn, Middlesex, gent. Property: Manor of Amell & Trilly. Endorsement: 1 list of tenants who paid homage to Wm. NOY 28/AUG/1631: 2 livery of seisin delivered at Amilleberye by attorneys 28/AUG/1631
GB15/2-3 Marriage Settlement: Consideration: L300. Parties: 1 Humphry NOY, Carnanton, esq.: 2 Wm. DAVYES of St. Erth, esq. Recites the intended marriage of (2) to Cath. daughter of (1). Properties: Manor of Amell & Trilly: Nanscleddra, Chylasson, Amellebry (Amalebrea), Embla, Lady Downs, and a stamping mill all in Towednack: Boswase, Ludgvan: Tregerthen, Tremeder, Foge (Voage), Bosprennis (Bosporthennis) in Zennor: Treeve, Alias Trefeefe, Sennen: Chyangweale,, one stamping mill, Lelant: lose Yeare alias Chapel Close, Penzance with names of the occupiers. 11/12/1679.
GB prefix indicates that the references relate to GILBERT family papers held at the Record Office.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 12, 2007 13:36:56 GMT -5
GHW(G)19/18/1 Amellibrea 20NOV1703: Rent: 15/0d.: Consideration: L190. Lives: Michael CURNOW, jun.: Jacob CURNOW, sons of Michael CURNOW (2). Indenture between: 1. Henry DAVIES, jun. of Perranuthnoe and 2. Michael CURNOE of Towednack. Endorsed: "Sealed & delivered being transferred on payment of the double six penny stamp. signed by: Francis PENNACK & Robert CURNOW.
GHW(G) 19/18/2: 20Nov1703: Henry DAVIES to Michael CURNOW Amellibrea in Amellibrea L190: Rent: 15/0d. or in lieu B[est] B[east] 40/0d. Lives: Michael & Jacob, sons of Michael CURNOW (2) after decease or determination of the right of John JAMES of St. Ives. Endorsement as above.
GHW(G)19/18/3: 12JAN1719 Taylor's Tenement in Amellibrea. (1) Henry DAVIES of Perranughnoe to (2) James & William, of Towednack tinners, sons of William TREWHEELA, decd. Consideration: L38/17/0d.: Rent: 8/0d. B[est] B[east] in lieu 30/0d. Life: James TREWHEELA (2) after Martin VIBART & Joan TREWHEELA, widow.
GHW(G)19/18/4: 3JAN1728 Hodge's Tenement in Amellibrea: Consideration: L160: Rent: 10/0d. Capon: 1/0d. Henry DAVIES (1) to John BERRYMAN (2) of Zennor, yeo.: Lives: Andrew BERRYMAN, son of John BERRYMAN (2) aged 4 years: Mark BERRYMAN, aged 9years, son of Mark BERRYMAN: Present Life: Matthew TREWHEELA of Ludgvan. Previous occupier Thomas TREWHEELA of Towednack. Formerly possession of William HODGE (prior to Thomas TREWHEELA).
GHW(G)19/18/5: 26FEB746 1/4 Hodge's Tenement: L25 & 18/0d. on marriage: Rent: 3/5d.: Capon: 3d.: (1) Mr. Henry DAVIES of Tredrea: (2) William CURNOW: Lives: William CURNOW aged 2years & TYhomas CURNOW aged 7 years, sons of (2). Present Life: Mark BERRIMAN.
GHW(G)19/18/6: Data as above: Endorsed by Davies GIDDY "Surrendered at the Court holden on 23 OCT 1815 on the death of Thomas CURNOW the last life."
GHW(G)/19/18/7: Manor of Amil-an-trille: Rack Lease 7APR1814 for 14 years: Rent L60 p.a.: part of Amilebrea in Towednack: 1/4 part: (1) Davies GIDDY, Esq.: (2) William & Matthew TREWHELLA, yeomen of Towednack.
GHW(G)19/18/8: 1SEP1832: Lease of Chelason & Part of Amalebrea, Towednack: (1) Davies GILBERT, Esq.: (2) Matthew TREWHELLA, yeoman: Terms: 7 years from Michaelmas next: Rent: L52/11/3d.. p.a. & Land Tax on Chelason L1/3/9d.: Chelason late in the possession of William TREWHELLA, on whose death it "fell in hand" to Davies GILBERT and now of Matthew TREWHELLA (2) and is part of Amille-an-tille.
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Post by Zenobia on May 13, 2007 21:05:53 GMT -5
Two of these I find particularly interesting:
GHW(G)19/18/4: 3JAN1728 Hodge's Tenement in Amellibrea: Consideration: L160: Rent: 10/0d. Capon: 1/0d. Henry DAVIES (1) to John BERRYMAN (2) of Zennor, yeo.: Lives: Andrew BERRYMAN, son of John BERRYMAN (2) aged 4 years: Mark BERRYMAN, aged 9years, son of Mark BERRYMAN: Present Life: Matthew TREWHEELA of Ludgvan. Previous occupier Thomas TREWHEELA of Towednack. Formerly possession of William HODGE (prior to Thomas TREWHEELA).
The Matthew Trewheela, 'present' life must be Matthew 1679, who married his cousin Jane Trewhella. The 'previous occupier' Thomas Trewhella - was that his grandfather? Or was it the Thomas who married Philippa Hosking (he was still living....). And where does William Hodge come it...?
This one has to be dated wrong... these deeds all seem to be negociated shortly after a death, and Thomas Trewhella died 10 Oct 1729. Should the above be dated Jan 1729 (30) and someone backdated it...?
GHW(G)19/18/3: 12JAN1719 Taylor's Tenement in Amellibrea. (1) Henry DAVIES of Perranughnoe to (2) James & William, of Towednack tinners, sons of William TREWHEELA, decd. Consideration: L38/17/0d.: Rent: 8/0d. B[est] B[east] in lieu 30/0d. Life: James TREWHEELA (2) after Martin VIBART & Joan TREWHEELA, widow.
This one makes a bit more sense, as William Trewhella Sr. had just recently died. Is "Joan" Trewhella, his widow, Jane Baragwanath? And where does Martin Vibart fit in?
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Post by Zenobia on May 13, 2007 21:11:37 GMT -5
GHW(G)19/18/5: 26FEB746 1/4 Hodge's Tenement: L25 & 18/0d. on marriage: Rent: 3/5d.: Capon: 3d.: (1) Mr. Henry DAVIES of Tredrea: (2) William CURNOW: Lives: William CURNOW aged 2years & TYhomas CURNOW aged 7 years, sons of (2). Present Life: Mark BERRIMAN.
This one is easy enough: William Curnow was married to Joan Trewhella, youngest daughter of William and Jane (Baragwanath) Trewhella and William and Thomas were their sons...(except William should be 12 years old, not two - typo?)
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 14, 2007 14:29:46 GMT -5
Always the questions! ;D Will try to take a better look at all of this tomorrow but wanted to acknowledge that I have at least looked at your replies. I will check what you have sent against what 'I sent' against what 'NRT sent' and see how we go from there. At least we are starting to get an insight into some stuff we have been dwelling on for a few years.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 17, 2007 15:58:50 GMT -5
It is possible there may be one or two 'transcription errors' but a brief check of the couple you have highlighted indicates that I have copied the transcription faithfully.
The date of 1728 and the age of William as 2 years are both what appear in the information sent to me.
Will investigate all of this informaton as soon as I get the chance.
Meanwhile - really need to get some of the Census information finished.
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Post by Zenobia on May 24, 2007 20:45:14 GMT -5
GB15/20 99 year lease on lives of Jas. & Jn. TREWHEELA, yeo. both of Towednack and Elizabeth WARREN. Consideration: L110: rent 7/0d. Parties: Eliab. HARVEY, London & Humphry NOY, Carnanton esquires.: 2 Jn. QUICK, miller and Jas. TREWHEELA, yeo. both of Towednack. Property: land in village of Nancledra, Towednack. 31/MAY/1658. Eeek! I jsut realized something... Who is John Trewhella, yeo, of Towednack? He cannot be James' son, but must be an adult....
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 25, 2007 14:06:17 GMT -5
You have me there! The only thing that I can think of is that both James and John (both mentioned as yeomen) were the sons of James and Blanch Trewhella. Note that among the 'Parties' involved in signing the lease were Jn Quick, miller and Jas. Trewheela, yeo. both of Towednack. I would suggest that, although both James and John were mentioned as yeomen they were, in fact, sons of James and Blanch Trewheela with the term 'yeoman' meaning that they owned the land in their father's right after his death. It is therefore probable that the James mentioned as a life is the man who left the 1699 Will on the Isles of Scilly and who mentioined properties in Towednack along with all those abstract relatives we took so long to sort out. James and John appear to have been the eldest sons of James and Blanch so this is not such an awkward situation. John would be the man who went on to marry Katherine Hingston and cause all those later problems with Francis, Baldwin, etc.!
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Post by Zenobia on May 25, 2007 16:24:11 GMT -5
ahhhhh.... I think it was 'operator error' Here is what you have listed above: GB15/20 99 year lease on lives of Jas. & Jn. TREWHEELA, yeo. both of Towednack and Elizabeth WARREN. Consideration: L110: rent 7/0d. Parties: Eliab. HARVEY, London & Humphry NOY, Carnanton esquires.: 2 Jn. QUICK, miller and Jas. TREWHEELA, yeo. both of Towednack. Property: land in village of Nancledra, Towednack. 31/MAY/1658.Here is the same in the A2A catalogue: GB/15/20 - date: 31 May 1658 99 yr. lease (lives: Jas. and Jn. Trewheela, Eliz. Warren) consideration £110; rent 7/-. 1. Eliab Harvey, London, Hump. Noy, Carnanton, esqs. 2. Jn. Quick, miller and Jas. Trewheela, yeo., both of Towednack. - land in village of Nancleddra, Towednack.They are practically identical, except the words 'yeo., both of Towednack' is added in TWO place in the former, but only one in the latter...
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 26, 2007 13:55:40 GMT -5
Have no answer at the moment except to say that what I quoted you was exactly what I got from Nancy. The question might be "Who is in error" - Nancy or the transcriber who quoted the document in the A2A Index. Knowing Nancy I would be inclined to think she noted things in order in which case her version would be correct. However, there is definitely a dilemma here that needs to be sorted out. I think the main line of research might be to identify Elizabeth WARREN in which case we might find an answer.
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Post by Zenobia on May 26, 2007 14:35:04 GMT -5
Have no answer at the moment except to say that what I quoted you was exactly what I got from Nancy. The question might be "Who is in error" - Nancy or the transcriber who quoted the document in the A2A Index. Knowing Nancy I would be inclined to think she noted things in order in which case her version would be correct. However, there is definitely a dilemma here that needs to be sorted out. I think the main line of research might be to identify Elizabeth WARREN in which case we might find an answer. Sorry, I am going to put my bets on Nancy as the person who made the mistake, for five reasons: 1. I know from our correspondence 15 years ago that Nancy made occasional mistakes in will transcriptions (not that I am blaming her - I've done the same - it is easy enough to do). I remember one in particular where she turned a Renoden into a Curnow or some such. 2. If Nancy is right, then the deed makes no sense, as no 3 year old boy would be called a 'yeoman' (no matter how much one tries to spin it) and therefore we would have to postulate another James and John, adults, in Towednack that we've never had evidence of). 3. Later deeds often give more details on 'lives', giving relationships to the leasee, ages, etc., but early deeds simply listed the lives and that was it. No detail. And also, we know that the common practice was to put one or more young children on as the lives to make the lease valid longer, assuming the children survived. There's no way, taking what we know, that these two are adults. 4. In my years of experience in genealogy I've seen time and time again where someone copying a document either misses a line completely, or copies it twice, because they take their eyes away from the page to write, and when they look back, they look at the wrong line... 5. I trust the British Government to have transcribed accurately. I am certain they would have employed more than one transcriber, so any discrepancies could be double checked.... Is Nancy working from the orignal deeds, or someone else's transcription....? Maybe we could get Cornish Maid to double check it...but until then, I am going to go with makes plain common sense to me, and that is that Nancy made a mistake... She may have even copied it correctly, but read it wrong to you over the phone... Incidentally, I would think that Elizabeth Warren is going to be the adult of the group of three, but most liekly a young adult. The question now is who is she? A sister of James II that we did not know about? Or a niece? I wonder if there is any significance in the fact that she was named third....?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 27, 2007 11:58:33 GMT -5
Hope you have the Gloves on! ;D Firstly, the information from Nancy was transcribed at the CRO by herself and then typed and sent to me and I believe I have faithfully transferred her information to you. (Yes - we all make mistakes and any person attempting what we are would be making an even bigger mistake if they did not admit that it can happen). I have been mulling over this for probably a couple of hours now and have found something very interesting! Without being 'nasty' I would suggest you read through what I sent you a little more closely. (No I will outlay a little for you to make it easier and so everyone else can see what is happening.) Re-quote of some of Nancy's stuff:- GB 15/19 99 year lease on lives of Martyn & Thomas TREWHEELA, consideration L40: rent 7/0d. Parties named: 1. Humphry NOY, Carnanton (near Newquay who was son of William NOYE of Pendrrea, St. Buryan. and was Attorney General.) & Eliab. HARVEY, London esquires: 2 Jas. TREWHEELA, Towednack, yeo. Property: Chylasson 31/MAY/1658GB 15/20 99 year lease on lives of Jas. & Jn. TREWHEELA, yeo. both of Towednack and Elizabeth WARREN. Consideration: L110: rent 7/0d. Parties: 1 Eliab. HARVEY, London & Humphry NOY, Carnanton esquires.: 2 Jn. QUICK, miller and Jas. TREWHEELA, yeo. both of Towednack. Property: land in village of Nancledra, Towednack. 31/MAY/1658.I draw your attention, in particular, to the dates of these Deeds! ;D I believe you will notice that both Deeds bear the same date! This should throw a somewhat different light on matters and enable us to forgive Nancy (if she did make a mistake). Will close this note now in case I lose it (as has happened before) and then think for a few minutes before adding some more input to this little problem.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 27, 2007 12:14:04 GMT -5
There is a 'slim' chance our record books may require a little re-working but I believe they are still substantially correct. Look forward to your thoughts and I hope to have more of my own on this before I finish for the night.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 27, 2007 13:07:08 GMT -5
Please forgive Nancy - here is an extract from A2A Catalogue (copied and pasted - not transcribed):- Volume of transcripts made by John Amyatt Chaundy Vincent 10 Oct.-12 Nov. 1873. FILE [no title] - ref. RP/6/23 - date: 1873 [from Scope and Content] Michael son of Ralph de Brethey. To his tenants Hugh Peverel, son and heir of James Peverel. Richard de Restyn, Richard de Trewila. Michael le Wastel. Randulph de Trenowan. William de Hendre. Robert de Penros. He had given to Thomas his son the homage and rents and their services in Hyrmoneve (? Halyena in St. Enoder), Trenowan, Trewyla (Trewhela in St. Enoder), Banerlek, (Benallack in St. Enoder), Trenowan Hendre (Hendra in St. Enoder) and Penros (Penrose in St. Enoder), and they were to pay these services to Thomas, his son. I think you might notice that the date in the heading cannot possibly relate to the content!
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