I am pondering whether "my" Nathaniel 1717 was Zacharias' brother or uncle. I've found two sons for him: Thomas(named after his brother?) and Nathaniel-- no Zach. Here is where I join in with a headache and/or glass of wine with Cornish Maid! Should I ever find myself in your area, I will "stand you a pint." --- Midwest translation: buy you a beer.
Last Edit: Jan 26, 2015 12:54:06 GMT -5 by zibetha
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 27, 2015 7:03:13 GMT -5
I have spent a fair bit of time last night and again most of today trying to sort through the Zachariah/Zacharias Williams of Ludgvan but unfortunately I still have work to do!
The work I have done so far has reduced my lists and I thought identifying the burials might help pin down some of the marriages. My problem at the moment is that there are still 7 burials to properly identify and then I have 5 marriages to work on.
1770 Zachariah Williams and Bridget Trewheela 1772 Zacharias Williams and Mary Johns 1783 Zacharias Williams and Elizabeth Semmens 1785 Zacharias Williams and Martha Uren 1794 Zacharias Williams and Mary Oats
1770 (Bridget) and 1783 (Elizabeth) certainly appear to be the same man and Nathaniel Williams as witness would seem to be the key in identifying him but I still cannot be certain who he is.
1785 Martha Uren has me completely flummoxed and at the moment I cannot find a possible burial or even a possible second marriage for Martha that might help identify her and, in turn, Zacharias.
The one thing that might be of help with some of this is the 1810 Will of Zacharias Curnow who died age 65. Unfortunately I have not yet been able to find a copy or transcript of that Will. This Zacharias is one of two whose age at death has them born around 1745!
The husband of Mary Oats appears to have died in 1840 age 67 but there is another problem as he could be the son of Zachariah and Bridget or of William and Joan (nee Sampson) with the latter couple having a son Nathaniel.
I will try and do some more on this tomorrow when my mind might be a little fresher.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 29, 2015 1:27:59 GMT -5
Zib - some serious thinking about this problem needs to be done and I have to start by picking a few holes in three of your early comments.
I have a Williams family challenge related to this. Francis and Bridget had a daughter, Bridget, born in 1742 who married a Zacharias Williams (spell it any way you want to) in 1770 at Ludgvan. So far, I have only found one daughter, Bridget, born in 1776 at Ludgvan. I think my Amelia Williams descends from Nathaniel Williams 1717, spouse unknown. Said Nathaniel's son, Nathaniel 1746, seems to have witnessed 2 marriages: one of Zacharias Williams to Bridget Trewhella in 1770 and another in 1783 between Zacharias Williams and Elizabeth Semmens who had Trewhella connections herself. My thought is that these are both wives of the same man.
Question no. 2 is who was Zacharias? I see two possibilities: son of Zacharias and Christian Pulgrene (wife 1 or 2?) or son of 1717 Nathaniel's brother Thomas and Joan Pearce.
I find myself stymied by this!
What makes you think that Thomas Williams (1715 brother to Nathaniel) married Joan Pearce? That marriage took place at St Hilary which, although neighbouring Ludgvan, was home to many Williams families as well. AND there was a Thomas Williams baptized at St Hilary in 1705 who might have been the husband of Joan. Furthermore that marriage was in July 1734 at which time Thomas would have been 19 and there is no mention of him being from elsewhere. There were also at least three children baptized to Thomas and Joan at St Hilary (1735, 1740 and 1743) with the added possibility of Thomasin daughter of Thomas and Jane in 1737.
I think it more likely that Thomas (1715 Ludgvan) is the one who married Patience Michell at Ludgvan 6th January 1736(os) with three children baptized at Ludgvan - Thomas 1737, Nathaniel 1741 and Zachariah 1744.
The baptism of Nathaniel (1717) is recorded at both Ludgvan and St Hilary for some unknown reason but that is the only link I can find between the two Parishes at the moment.
I am pondering whether "my" Nathaniel 1717 was Zacharias' brother or uncle. I've found two sons for him: Thomas(named after his brother?) and Nathaniel-- no Zach.
This comment has me right on the back foot! You say that Nathaniel was married (to someone unknown) and had at least two sons - Nathaniel and Thomas - yet I can find no evidence whatsoever for any of this. In your first quote (above) you state that son Nathaniel was born 1746 yet the only evidence that might support this is the burial of Nathaniel Williams of Church Town age 80 in 1826 at Ludgvan.
You say the other 'known' son was Thomas - who do you have as his wife and what children?
Not done thinking about this--- Nathaniel 1717 may have been the son of Zachariah/s although he did not use the name for one of his own children.
As I said in comments above I can find nothing to support that Nathaniel was married or had children. That we have a Nathaniel buried in 1826 age 80 is certainly not disputed as the record is clearly written in the Ludgvan Parish Register but what I would question is the correctness/accuracy of his age!! I have just one Nathaniel Williams at the moment who 'might' be this man but he would have been age 84 in 1826. Nathaniel son of Thomas (and Patience?) Williams baptized 2nd February 1741(os) at Ludgvan.
If this is the man buried in 1826 then he had brothers Thomas (1737) - probably married Jane Williams of Penzance at Ludgvan 1760 - and Zachariah (1744) who is one of three candidates I have for the marriage to Bridget Trewheela.
It might be helpful if you could outline the links you currently have from Amelia Williams back to Nathaniel of 1717. That might help me sort a few things out.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 29, 2015 5:57:45 GMT -5
No problem Zib, I am still working on a few things and trying to figure it all out. I have tried to sort out the Nathaniels as well but it gets a little awkward because the family of Nathaniel Williams and Lydia Carn completely disappears!!! No burials, no marriages and no other sign that I can find right now.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 29, 2015 8:30:22 GMT -5
Zib - a brief note before I put this away for the night.
I am now 'reasonably' satisfied that the Zacharias Williams who married Elizabeth Semmens at Ludgvan in 1783 is probably the same man previously married to Bridget Trewheela. As mentioned in an earlier post Zacharias made his mark on both occasions - in 1770 the mark was a pronounced upright stroke whilst in 1783 he used 'z w' as his mark.
Part two of this is, of course, the identity of Nathanial Williams with that signiature appearing on both the above marriages as a witness. After spending hours checking and rechecking signiatures of all the possible Nathaniel Williams who might have been involved I have arrived at the conclusion that it was most likely the same Nathaniel Williams witnessing both marriages. The only marked difference in the two signiatures is the formation of the 'W' in the surname and if the signiatures are compared with the 'W' ignored then they are almost identical.
The logical conclusion from that then is that Nathaniel and Zacharias were likely to be brothers.
Using signiature comparison again I can also now say that I am satisfied that the Nathaniel Williams witnessing the two marriages of Zacharias is the same Nathaniel Williams of Ludgvan who married Margaret Edmonds at St HIlary on May 9th 1779. Although her age would be slightly out I believe Margaret (Edmonds) was buried at Ludgvan 13th January 1801 age 41. (Margaret daughter of Edward and Catherine Edmonds was baptized at Marazion 13th November 1757 (St Hilary Parish Register) with parents being Edward Edmonds and Catherine Spargoe who married at St HIlary 4th November 1756.)
It now also looks like the husband of Margaret was the Nathaniel Williams buried at Ludgvan in 1826 age 80.
Over the next few days I will try and work on this some more to see if I can find anything else to help link Nathaniel and Zacharias together. Remember also that I suspect the age in that 1826 burial to be suspect.
Oh yes, there is one more thing:-
I believe Elizabeth to have been the daughter of Thomas Semmens/Symons and Jane Noble.
I cannot seem to find a daughter Elizabeth for this couple!
CT, I backed away from this for awhile. One thing I learned was to vary how I searched names when I realized I was not picking up on variations ending in superscript. Nath-l etc. This family group is a challenge.
The children of Nathaniel Williams and Lydia Carne don't entirely disappear: I think there was a late marriage of daughter Elizabeth 1798 to William Hall in 1839 at Gulval, and that her sister, Ann 1788, later married William's widowed father, John Hall. Widows Elizabeth and Ann can be found together on the census in 1861 in Madron. Both too old to have had any offspring from their marriages.
Daughter Jennifer/Jane married Thomas Mills in 1815 at St Erth and had numerous children.
I've found a Lysander Williams of appropriate age in the US -- nothing to prove a link, though.
Nathaniel Williams' sister, Ann, appears to have married James Bryant. I was recently notified of an Ancestry DNA match to someone who establishes himself as one of Ann's descendants. That was a big (and pleasant) surprise
Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 6, 2016 8:31:02 GMT -5
I think there was a late marriage of daughter Elizabeth 1798 to William Hall in 1839 at Gulval
Hi Zib - I haven't looked at this family for quite a while either and at the moment I'm not sure when I will be able to put any time into them. However I do have a comment about your proposed marriage for Elizabeth to William Hall. I have just checked the Ludgvan PR again and this daughter is very clearly baptised as ELIZA. Of course it is always possible that she really was an Elizabeth or that she used both names on different occasions however I'm really not sure this was the girl who married William Hall. In my opinion the Elizabeth Williams who married William Hall at Gulval in 1839 might very well have been the following:-
Elizabeth daughter of Nathaniel and Margaret Williams of Trevarrack, labourer, baptised 7th July 1815 at Gulval
I can't find any children so far but I have not checked Non-conformist records and it is always possible William and Elizabeth Hall emigrated soon after the marriage. The other point is that this William was a cordwainer whilst the William Hall in the 1851 Census with wife Elizabeth was a farmer.
But my biggest concern right now with your thinking is that Nathaniel and Lydia Williams DID NOT have a daughter named Ann! The list of children I found for Nathaniel and Lydia is - Lydia (1785), John (1787), Nathaniel (1788), Jennifer (1791), Thomas (1794), James (1797), Eliza (1798), Lysander (1801), Juliana (1803), Amelia (1804), Benjamin Carn (1806) and Henry (1809).
The Ann Hall in 1861 was age 79 also and so would have been born about 1781 or 1782 (not 1788 as you specified). She could have been the daughter of Nathaniel and Jennifer Williams but then as far as I can tell they never had a daughter named Elizabeth.
I don't want you spending any more time on this! I do have Elizabeth and Ann (whose YOB I had noted as 1788 or alternately 1783) next to each other on the 1851 census and later together as widows, so I do suspect they were connected -- not just their husbands, but who knows?! Thank you for the additional information.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 12, 2016 5:18:13 GMT -5
Zib - apologies for any belated comments but I had forgotten I cleared my browser history recently. When I do that it means that next time I log in to PG I have to enter my username and password again and I had neglected to do so. Consequently whenever I logged in recently it appeared that there had been no activity so I logged straight back out again!
This latest discussion focusses on a problem that at present is not easily solvable but I wouldn't give up on it totally. Continuing work on other areas can often lead to an innocuous clue that when followed leads back to the solution. I have been finding this quite often in recent times while working on the Quick families.
Post by Cornish Terrier on May 13, 2017 20:10:52 GMT -5
WELL, WELL, WELL!!!!! I have just discovered yet another CONVICT in the family!
At the Quarter Sessions held at Truro 27th April 1756 Bernard COCK and his wife Prudence, both of Madron, found themselves before the judiciary:-
Bernard Cock of Madron; stealing goods, value 6d., of John Jane: transported to plantations of America for seven years. Prudence, wife of Bernard Cock of Madron; stealing goods, value 6d., of John Mitchell: transported to plantations of America for seven years.
Prudence was the daughter of John and Katherine Trewhella of Ludgvan and sister to James Trewhella of Ludgvan whose Will was proved in 1764. She was also a sister to our elusive Francis Trewhella!
This newly found record solves one problem but it raises yet another. In the first place it explains why I have not been able to find any record of Bernard or Prudence after the baptism of their son John at Madron in 1742 but then it does not explain the fact that Prudence was left 'one shilling' in the Will of brother James to be payd to her within twelve months after my decease.
When sentenced to transportation in 1756 Prudence would have been age 58 and her husband would then have been about 64. If Prudence served her full sentence (and survived!) she would have been 63 and quite possibly a widow and it is also questionable whether she might have had any further contact with family back in Cornwall. And given no burial can be found for her in Cornwall it does seem unlikely that she returned.
So why did James leave her something in his Will? The bequest of one shilling was the same amount as that left to his other two siblings as well as his three step-children so did James expect her to return ...... or did he not even know about her sentence?? (To not know would mean that he had not seen or heard from his sister since 1756 and nor had he been in contact with anyone else who may have told him!!)
I wonder if Prudence was still alive and managed to catch up with brother Francis when he arrived in 1764/5?
Well well indeed! An excellent find. But I'm thinking he would indeed know about the transportation, so like Francis Trewheela, what happened to these transportees? Did they return/escape under alias names? And never get themselves found by that chap that made it his mission to find such people?
Post by Cornish Terrier on May 17, 2017 5:16:34 GMT -5
I think it probable that Bernard and Prudence Cock as well as Francis Trewheela all died in America but the unfortunate thing is that we may never find any record of the events. I have just checked Ancestry who have indexed information from Peter Wilson Coldham's books 'Emigrants In Bondage' and 'More Emigrants In Bondage' showing that Bernard and Prudence Cock both arrived in America in 1757. The name of the ship is not mentioned and the place of arrival is recorded as 'Port uncertain'.
I don't know what record keeping was like for convicts in those days (or for anyone else for that matter!) but I would not be too hopeful given that it was well past 1900 for some US States before any sort of compulsory registration commenced.