Reviewing this, I do not think Elizabeth of St Austell has anything to do with Stephen Penberthy of Phillack. She is in St. Austell throughout the census years, beginning with 1841 with daughter Hannah Jane and son John. I can't see why she would leave relatively young kids in Phillack (son Stephen and his sibs) and also she can't be in two places at once. There is a different Elizabeth in Phillack in 1841 with the children I think are related to me. So--Elizabeth is still a mystery.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 4, 2013 2:50:49 GMT -5
I think you have a rather large and not so pretty conclusion by the scruff of the neck here!
Yes, there is an Elizabeth Penberthy at St Austell in 1841 and in 1851. And she has two children with her but no husband in either case. In 1851 Elizabeth says she is widowed and if that is so then it seems she was widowed prior to 1841.
1. Elizabeth's age indicates a birth about 1812 or 1813 which, if it were Elizabeth Cottay, would make her about age 15 when married in 1828 2. Because she is without husband in both 1841 and 1851 we do not have a name for a husband so it could have been anyone 3. I CANNOT FIND A BAPTISM FOR EITHER OF THE TWO CHILDREN ...... ANYWHERE!
Once again you have written off Elizabeth Cottay on the basis of extremely flimsy circumstantial evidence.
We really need to do a bit of work to try and identify a father for those children of Elizabeth Penberthy at St Austell before drawing any conclusions.
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 4, 2013 4:07:59 GMT -5
Calswimmer - I think I have been able to solve your latest dilemma.
In my previous I mentioned that I had not been able to find baptisms for the two children of Elizabeth Penberthy anywhere. But I realised later that I had restricted my search based on the ages recorded in the two Census years. And I also realised that I had neglected another thought that had crossed my mind about son John. In 1841 and 1851 Hannah/Anna Jane indicated she was born about 1830 or 1831 and then there is a gap to John who was apparently born about 1836 or 1836. My thought here was that perhaps John was an illegitimate son to Elizabeth after she was widowed.
Unfortunately I have still not found a baptism for John but in the following I will sort out Anna Jane for you. This is a little confusing because the people involved decided to be a little less truthful about their ages and also we are dealing with some name changes!
As I was heading to the loungeroom to watch the News it crossed my mind that there might be one more way to find out the name of the father of those children of Elizabeth and that was to try and find a marriage for at least one of those children. So ....................
1841 Census Western Turnpike, St Austell Elizth Penberthy, 32 John do., 4 Anna Jane do., 11
1851 Census Old Turnpike, St Austell Elizabeth Penberthy, head, wid, 38, upholstress, St Austell Hannah J do., daur, unm, 20, at home, St Austell John do., son, 14, baker's assistant, St Austell
At this point I searched for possible marriage records and found the following:-
25th December 1856 St Austell by Banns William Bennett Vindecombe, 23, bachelor, labourer of St Austele, son of Edward Bennett Vindecombe, labourer Anna Jane Penberthy, 22, spinster of St Austle, daughter of William Penberthy, smith Witnesses - Thomas Woon, John Julyan (bride and groom both signed with a 'mark')
1861 Census Brays Court, St Austell William Bennett, head, mar., 27, ag. lab., St Ewe Hannah Jane do., wife, mar., 30, St Austell Elizabeth A do., daur, 2, St Austell Elizabeth Penberthy, mother in law, wid., 50, nurse, St Austell John do., brother in law, unm., 22, blacksmith, St Austell
Note that William Bennett Vindecombe became simply William Bennett in the 1861 Census and note also that mother-in-law Elizabeth Penberthy and brother-in-law John are present.
Then look at the age of Anna/Hannah through the Census - in 1841 she is 11, in 1851 she is 20, when she married she was 22 and in 1861 she was 30!
So the Elizabeth you found at St Austell with children Anna Jane and John was actually the widow of William Penberthy and, therefore, the sister-in-law of Stephen Penberthy! She was, in fact, Elizabeth Taylor!
So Elizabeth Cottay is still the wife of Stephen Penberthy!!!!
Yes, that may be. I thought of that after I posted (of course!). At least it is clear that the one in St. Austell all those years hadn't married Stephen. Thanks for the marriage info for Hannah Jane. It was John who first piqued my interest, because John, son of Stephen, is John Mills Penberthy, and was married at a time when Elizabeth Taylor Penberthy's son John is living in her household (and of a different age than the former). Looks like the website had its upgrade! Very nice.
Woops--son of Stephen wasn't John Mills Penberthy, but rather John who married Ann Mills, which couple then had Stephen Mills Penberthy. And coincidentally I have found a border crossing for a Stephen John Mills Penberthy (probably his relative, I would think) from Mexico to Naco, Arizona in 1923. The scan is almost entirely illegible on ancestry.com, but the transcription has his nationality as Mexican, and his birth place as Ventonleague, Nalys, Ce with a question mark. Well, probably there is only one Ventonleague, and that would be in Cornwall.
Last Edit: Jun 4, 2013 22:18:58 GMT -5 by calswimmer
Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 5, 2013 1:11:27 GMT -5
And remember that after Stephen and Elizabeth married at St Austell they began baptising children at Phillack. In 1835 they were again at St Austell where daughter Elizabeth was baptised and afterwards back at Phillack where young Elizabeth died in 1849.
Well, Calswimmer, that Ancestry record is blurred beyond belief! Fortunately, there is a second one when he crosses back from Naco in Sonora, Mexico to Naco in Cochise county, Arizona in August of 1924 that is much more legible. Stephen John was a miner from Great Britain 2 months short of age 23 returning to his permanent residence in Bisbee, Arizona, which was also the home of his nearest relative in the US: sister Lilly Hosking. He held a British passport. His father was Benjamin Penberthy of Ventonleague, "Halye," Cornwall, England.
I have a few Penberthy connections via marriage that I am expanding, and my great-grandfather told my mother that his mother-in-law was from "Hull" sounding like the hull of a boat in American English. He was referring to Bessie Sampson Mitchell, which would mean Hayle or the "Halye" referred to above. I do all this by computer which made me realize I have no idea how Hayle is pronounced!
Post by calswimmer on Jun 25, 2013 18:50:27 GMT -5
Thanks for that--I found the Penberthy family in the Cornwall censuses and found Lilly married to Ernest Hosking in the 1930 census for Bisbee, Cochise, Arizona. She is listed as Lillian in that census. Ernest is a copper miner.