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Post by londoner on Oct 15, 2010 3:20:05 GMT -5
Dont forget that Trafalgar and all the associated upheaval happened in between. I have no explanation of why my 4xgt grandfather from Sennen became an ironmonger in London by 1814 but I suspect Napoleon had something to do with it!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 15, 2010 7:52:19 GMT -5
It could have been a contributory factor. If I could find some record of Richard Trewheeler's occupation it might help. He may have been a blacksmith like his father but I have nothing to confirm that. But he did move to Stoke Damerel sometime between 1787 and 1790 so was perhaps involved at the Dockyards. His son, John, was a wheelwright and was located at Woolwich prior to venturing off to Russia. Woolwich suggests the Arsenal and John would have been 20 at the time of the Battle of Trafalgar. All food for thought. But it has not yet led me to the death/burial place of Richard. As always - the hunt continues.
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Post by sue on Oct 15, 2010 9:37:48 GMT -5
1803 too early for Richard's death? You have probably long since disposed of this one, but just in case: Richard Truewhecler (shown as Truenieler elsewhere)
Burial Date 17 Mar 1803 Burial Place St. Mildred, Canterbury, Kent, England
Canterbury being 28 miles east of the dockyards at Chatham; and en route between the port of Dover and the port of London.
Also,
Jane Truewheeler gender: Female burial date: 09 Jun 1803 burial place: St. Mildred, Canterbury, Kent, England father's name: Richd. Truewheeler mother's name: Martha
Probably wrong family, not the one you're looking at.
Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 15, 2010 12:07:59 GMT -5
Sue - I have always found it difficult to discard something I have never seen or found! You absolute Champion!! This is the right family and this is definitely the Richard I have been looking for. And you have also supplied another previously unknown child. But can you tell me where you found this information please? I have just checked IGI and also Ancestry again but they are not there. If there are images available I would like to get hold of them also. But most importantly is the source and how and where I can access it please. You also mention Chatham which is interesting as that is where Kirill says that William son of John and Ann was supposedly born. Eagerly awaiting your next. A most appreciative CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 15, 2010 12:29:32 GMT -5
My first obvservation from this information is that it dispels the family lore that Thomas Trewheellar had argued with his father and left home for good.
Thomas would probably have been under ten years old when his father died so it is highly unlikely he would have done as legend states.
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Post by sue on Oct 15, 2010 14:19:02 GMT -5
A tiny deduction from the large IOU I have with you! I plod away sporadically, & occasionally hit something! ;D The discussion caught my eye because a) it's rare for you to have missing info b) this is an exotic sounding family! c) you threw down the gauntlet by saying you'd be ecstatic! d) a lifetime ago I got married in Woolwich, I lived & worked in South London, there was a close friend working at the dockyard in Chatham, who lived Gillingham... so familiar territory, once upon a time Also, name: Frederick William gender: Male baptism/christening date: 1808 baptism/christening place: GILLINGHAM, KENT, ENGLAND birth date: 1808 father's name: John Truewheellar mother's name: Ann Richard Thomas gender: Male baptism/christening date: 1804 baptism/christening place: CHATHAM, KENT, ENGLAND father's name: Worne Truewheeler mother's name: Sarah And you have Dinah Theresa Trewheellar & Richard Barnes Trewheeller to Thomas & Dinah in Kennington I think. (Why would you name your 1st son after your father if you had fallen out bigtime?) I found them by plodding through a long list on a wildcard search under TRE, then TRU (I think....!). Sorry: no images. FamilySearchbeta limited to England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991.; then England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975. Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 15, 2010 15:02:04 GMT -5
Sue - there is no IOU required! But you have earned bonus points this time. You have now confirmed that Frederick William (or William Frederick) was born in Kent in 1808 which verifies the information from Kirill. AND you have now turned up another Missing Person! Warne Trewheler (Worne Truewheeler) was baptised 21st May 1782 at Kenwyn son of William Trewheler and Catherine (nee Truscott) He was a half-brother to Richard Truewheeler (husband to Martha Snow) from his father's third marriage. (There is something about this one that suggests I have seen it somewhere before but I cannot put my finger on it. ) But now there are, of course, more questions. We still do not have the marriage for John Trewheller and Ann. Now we need a marriage for Warne and Sarah. Still no sign of son Thomas to Richard and Martha. We have a Richard Thomas baptised to Worne and Sarah so what happened to him?? All most intriguing! But I will have to leave it now until at least Sunday night as I will be away from this afternoon until late Sunday on fire brigade training excercises. Looks like another late night Sunday though! Thankyou once again. CT
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Post by nzjohn1 on Oct 15, 2010 22:08:21 GMT -5
Hi All, welcome Lamorna, Sue & Londoner to this protracted Russo-Zealandic family discussion. The more the merrier and every bit of information is useful to sort out our family problems. This is my understanding of William's three wives and some of their children. There are no hard data in family records and these come from the LDS files that you have seen and some from 1930's -40's family letters. William TREWEELA +Elizabeth TREMELLEN m. 23 Feb 1754, Kenwyn, Cornwall, England, d. 25 Apr 1772 Richard TREWHEELER c. 18 Oct 1761, Kenwyn, Cornwall, England Jennifer TREWEELA b. 2 Mar 1772, Kenwyn, Cornwall, England, d. 3 Mar 1772, Kenwyn, Cornwall, England +Elizabeth JAMES m. 8 Dec 1773, Kenwyn, Cornwall, England, bur. 8 Sep 1780 Jane TREWEELA c. 7 Mar 1775, Kenwyn, Cornwall, England +Catherine TRUSCOTT m. 5 May 1781, Kenwyn, Cornwall, England Worne TREWEELA c. 21 May 1782, Kenwyn, Cornwall, England Jennifer TREWEELA c. 30 May 1784, Kenwyn, Cornwall, England Two other families in Kenwyn William + Jennifer .......... Richard c. 16/4/1775 William + ? William c 13/7/1760 (by the christening date, parents possibly William and Eliz. Tremellen and William is the elder brother of the other two). The family name became Truveller in Russia and Trewheellar in New Zealand, and there are lots of variants through early illiteracy and modern mis-transcriptions. All the descendants we know of come from Richard (c. 18/10/1761). Cheers NZJOHN
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Post by nzjohn1 on Oct 16, 2010 2:47:44 GMT -5
HI CT,
Big spanner in the works #2
William Trewheeler, 1798 - 1860, Architect to the Tsar, designed buildings in Peterhof. Have done some checking and nothing fits our William Frederick.
small sitw #3
William Trewheller, Middlesex jurist, 1833
sitw #4 1841 PO Directory (Middlesex): William Trewheela, Surveyor, 26 Tokenhouse Road.
sitw #5
Johns and Trewheelar, insolvency - sale of machinery, Sydney Morning Herald Thursday 17 May 1866, p 7.
sitw #6
1841 census 107/562/7 47 Mary Trewhellar 35 FS yes Seed Street, London.
Cheers
NZJohn1
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 16, 2010 3:28:16 GMT -5
NZJohn1 - I can take care of at least a couple of your 'spanners'. This one I don't think I know anything about so any information you have will be welcome so that I can try and identify him. William Frederick was born 1808 and is the (I think) 2xgt-grandfather of Kirill. He died in 1859 in a Polish uprising age 51 and had Anna Woolf as his second wife. These two entries are no doubt for the same man. William Trewheela bp. 28th January 1787 Ludgvan son of Thomas and Mary (nee Edwards) He married Sarah RUFF at St George the Martyr, Southwark 5th July 1818 and was a builder by trade. He lived at Southwark for a time but later mostly at Stoke Newington where he died in 1864. In the 1841 Census William and Sarah were living at Stoke Newington and his occupation was then recorded as 'Surveyor'. Another that I am not aware of but the fact it is the Sydney Morning Herald is interesting as is the date of 1866. Again - any further information will be welcome but this one may be purely coincidental with the names. This is actually Liverpool ... not London! I believe this was the second wife of Thomas Trewheellar whom he married in 1836 after Dinah died. I have not been able to confirm this but Liverpool is the right area as they were married at St Mary Edge Hill, Liverpool. CT
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Post by sue on Oct 16, 2010 6:18:55 GMT -5
I seem to have run out of luck finding anything more on this family - what with the travelling and the transcription/spelling of names I shall watch with interest what you unearth!
("Warne Trew...Ter" bptzm per FamilySearchbeta; or "Warne Trewketer"! being latest examples I've seen for 1782 baptism).
The marriage of John Trewhella to Anna Henriette Dorothea Berg: would she have been Prussian? And thus the marriage perhaps in Prussia? Which perhaps comes under German records?
Though just how the names would have been recorded.....John/Johann/Ivan?? surname anything beginning Tr!! ..... ;D
Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 16, 2010 9:01:50 GMT -5
Hi Sue - and thankyou once again. I now have images of the baptisms of Richard Thomas son of Warne and Sarah Trewheeler and also for Frederick William Truewheelar son of John and Ann. So far I have still been unable to locate the marriage for John and Ann and nor can I find a marriage for Warne and Sarah. But I think they will be both somewhere in Kent. Londoner gave me a link for Medway archives project which is putting PRs for the Medway area of Kent online and that is where I found the two records mentioned above. Unfortunately the scope of this project does not cover Canterbury so I cannot get images of the two burials you found. And I think the two marriages may will be in another part of Kent also. Possibly Canterbury or close by given Richard was buried there. You mention the possibility of Anna Berg being Prussian - a possibility certainly. But I only have that name - Anna Dorothea Henriette Berg - from one source and that is the Erik Amburger Databank which is a project based around English Artisans in Russia I think. I have been able to find nothing except her name linked as wife to John Trewheller with no clues as to the actual source of the information. And now that I know son William Frederick (or Frederick William) was born and baptised in Kent I am beginning to wonder whether that name is actually correct. She is only recorded as 'Ann' in any baptismal records I have located and Coulter was used at least once in the naming of the children. John Coulter Trewheellar bp. 23rd March 1813 St Mary Magdalene, Woolwich I also have the following burial from Ancestry's London PR collection:- William COULTON Trewheellar of Plumstead, age 6 months, buried Deptford St Nicholas, Plumstead, Kent 21st October 1813 Since I first found this burial I considered it was misrecorded and should be John Coulter Trewheellar with the burial information being an almost exact match to that of baptism. The arrival of Warne on the scene might complicate matters a little but I still think it is the same child. In either case I still have the problem of the origons of the name Coulter and why it was used when baptising John. CT
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Post by sue on Oct 16, 2010 10:09:49 GMT -5
If I were a betting person, I'd go Kent, too.
I'vee just gone cross-eyed searching for any Sarah marriage in Kent 1802+/- 2years, then looking at likely locations in Kent. Nowt.
Nowt for an Ann Coulter/Coulton either.
And you'd think variations on Warne would produce something, anything..... but no....
I give up! (for now!)
Good that you got 2 actual images for Kent, not just the 4 transcriptions on FamilySearch.
Sue
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 16, 2010 10:58:52 GMT -5
Gradually the bits and pieces are coming to light. But I really do have to thank people such as yourself, Londoner, Lamorna etc. for finding many of the bits that are leading me to these items. And one of NZJohn's spanners is proving a real headache! I have a rough idea of who he might be but that is all. What is more of a headache is the link to the Tsar and then the exact link to a lady who died in 2002 in Canada! There is a book entitled 'A Baltic Odyssey: War and Survival' written by Martha von Rosen, Jurgen von Rosen and Elvi Whittaker. In this it states that Martha's maternal grandfather was "an advisor to Tsar Nicholas II. Her grandfather, an English architect named William Trewheeler (1798-1860), was equally eminent in creating some of the beautiful buildings and fountains of the small town of Peterhof, ......" I now know the following after several hours work:- Martha von Kugelgen (1904-1998) married Jurgen von Rosen at St Nikolas Church, Tallinn, Estonia 22nd April 1934. Martha was the daughter of Ernst von Kugelgen and his wife Anna and it was Anna whose grandfather was William Trewheeler. Ernst von Kugelgen was born 26th March 1871 at Tallinn, Estonia (IGI) and he was the first General Practitioner at the Psychiatric Hosptial at Seewald, Estonia. I am yet to find the marriage of Ernst von Kugelgen and Anna and so do not know Anna's maiden name. To find that would give me one link closer to William Trewheeler but it does not look like the search will be a short one! It is very interesting stuff though. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 16, 2010 15:08:13 GMT -5
To repeat a quote: I have already made some observations/comments about this 'spanner'. But perhaps, just perhaps, I have found something that might be of a little more use. Trying different combinations to search for information I decided to revert to an old one - TREWHELER TULA. The results showed an interesting item that mentioned the name at least twice:- Notes of a Half-Pay in Search of Health: of, Russia, Circassia, and the Crimea, in 1839-40 by William Jesse I had a glance at the couple of quotes that were presented and then checked archive.org where I found this book, in two volumes, available for download. And, of course, download I have! In Volume 2 on page 274 I found something of interest. There is mention of "Mr Baird, the head engineer at St Petersburg, is an Englishman, and the statues and iron framework of the dome of the Isaac church, were cast in his foundry." Mentions of other Englishmen and a Frenchman along witn Rev. Mr. Law's congregation. But of most interest is:- "The arsenal, and government establishment for the manufacture of fire-arms, at Tula, is conducted by Mr. Jones;the machinery for the new works erecting there is under Mr. Trewheller; his son has care of the gardens, water-works, and palace at Peterhoff; ... " Given this is 1839-1840 then 'Mr Trewheller' would have to be John Trewheller I should think. 'His son ...... palace at Peterhoff' would therefore have to be William Frederick Trewheeler! And on reflection there are certain things that now tie in with the quote at the beginning of this post. (And also with the von Rosen information for that matter.) The quote above gives William Trewheeler's life-span as 1798 to 1860.I am inclined to suggest that this is only partially correct and that it is the birth year that is incorrect. Note that he is supposed to have died in 1860. And then consider that Kirill's ancestor William died in 1859 and that it is his family who is linked to the gardens. This would also provide a possible link to the von Kugelgen family. If I remember correctly Kirill told us that his ancestor William Frederick Trewheller came to Russia as a widower and with a young daughter before he married Ann Woolf. It is this daughter who may be the link. Lots of work still to be done but a little more has been added to the mix.
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