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Post by calswimmer on Aug 31, 2007 18:15:19 GMT -5
I agree: Who is the brother who died, and why does he never show up in another census? It's possible, but not likely that the "in-law" reference means Jane is an adopted or step-sister of Thomas, but since she is widowed it looks more like he did have a brother who is not Arthur. Unless she was married to Arthur, and claimed she was widowed when she really wasn't. I have seen that before. Well, I did see something in a rootsweb post about a William who had an inn and a brother Thomas Berryman may have come back to Cornwall to run it when Wm. apparently died. Maybe William was the brother. One of those big mysteries. I think the intriguing part is that Thomas and Jane came all the way to Oregon.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 1, 2007 11:11:15 GMT -5
Another Oops! by me - Regarding the death entries for Arthur and Ann Berryman - I neglected to include the year and quarter:- Arthur Berryman 1874 September Qtr Penzance Vol 5c Pg 179 Ann Berryman 1888 March Qtr Penzance Vol 5c Pg 195 Hope that clears things up a little.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 1, 2007 11:16:28 GMT -5
I am going to have to take some more time to look at this one as there seem to be a few anomolies creeping in. Arthur Berryman and Ann Mann were married at Zennor 17th July 1830 The 1841 Census shows daughter Ann aged 12 which indicates a birth of about 1839. Very curious so let me see what I can come up with that might help. Likewise - if you (or anyone else) have any further ideas/clues then let me know. There will be an answer.
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Post by calswimmer on Sept 1, 2007 18:41:28 GMT -5
I'm still puzzled, but came across a will abstract you have probably seen. John Berriman of St. Erth who dies in about 1848 has a daughter Elizabeth married to a Matthew Trewhella. Now since you know a lot about Trewhella's can you tell me if this Berryman-Trewhella connection might or might not have to do with the Oregon Berrymans and Trewhellas?
Another clue, possibly more useful, would be the census which shows other Berryman families also living near Thomas and family in 1891. They would probably be closely related. There is William, age 49, who has a son named Arthur, and there are two Roberts. I also see a marriage of James Thomas Berryman to Jessie Mann in 1887. You had mentioned Mann as a probable last name for Arthur's wife, I think.
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Post by calswimmer on Sept 1, 2007 19:10:49 GMT -5
Looking at more census entries....I see that Annie in the 1901 census says she is born in Gulval, and there is an Annie Berryman born in Gulval in Gulval in 1891, and seems about the right age, 24. She is granddaughter of John Richards, a widower, who also has daughters Ann and Mary. Possibly, Jane could be a Richards.
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Post by calswimmer on Sept 1, 2007 20:32:37 GMT -5
Okay, and I feel pretty happy to now have found from the BMD index that Arthur Berryman married Jane Richards in Cornwall in 1866!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 2, 2007 12:55:39 GMT -5
Phew! I am working hard on this but we may have a lot more work to do yet. Still working on the 'Oregon Connection' and trying to find out just what went on so you will have to bear with me on that for the moment. I have, tonight, been looking at a lot of Census entries that are proving very, very interesting but I need some time to digest the information and update my database accordingly. I have found no evidence so far that Arthur and Ann had any other children but I am also still working on that possibility. The William Berryman who had the Inn - hmmm. - I think I have something about him somewhere - just have to find it. But I am fairly sure he is not directly involved here as a son or sibling. Now, Arthur Berryman was buried at Zennor 19th July 1874, age 75, of Bosporthennis. It would appear that his wife Ann was buried at Zennor 27th February 1888, age 86, of Bosporthennis. (Although her age during the Census records reflects a birth of about 1799 - But I am pretty sure this will be her.) NEXT - John Berryman of 1848. His Will was written in 1832 and proved in 1848 - yet it was stated in Probate that he died 25th January 1843. I believe him to have been the son of Richard Berriman who married Elizabeth Nicholls at Gulval in 1755. (Richard was baptised at Zennor but was 'of Towednack' at the time of marriage.) My understanding is that John first married Elizabeth BRUSH at Gulval in 1790 and had one son. This son was named John and was baptised on the same day his mother was buried. John Berryman then, in 1797, married Catherine TREWHEELA at Towednack. It was their daughter, Elizabeth, who married Matthew TREWHELLA at Towednack in 1824 (the one you referred to in your last.) But it gets better - Elizabeth died in 1824 after having one daughter (Elizabeth Berriman Trewhella). Matthew TREWHELLA, now widowed, married Grace QUICK at Towednack in 1826 and had another five children. I think I am probably confusing you more with all of this and, I must admit, I am getting a little confused myself. However, regards the Oregon Connection - It is possible there may be some sort of connection but it is yet to be found. The main part of that was to do with the CURNOW/TREWHELLA connections which you may have read in other parts of this Forum. I will continue to investigate. As for the Census Records - I have been taking a close look at some of those, particularly 1851-1871 so far, and have found some very interesting stuff. This excursion has provided me with details of the burial of another 'Aunt' Jane MICHELL (nee TREWHELLA) amongst other little items that I need to work on. And yes, the Richards family might well be involved. Arthur BERRYMAN (m. Ann MANN) had several siblings. When his mother, Jane, wrote her Will in 1852 she named all living daughters but named only her youngest two sons, JOhn and Robert. From this I had initially determined that Arthur and William must have pre-deceased her. But I now have proof that this was an incorrect assumption. Amongst the daughters:- Mary BERRYMAN m. Thomas THOMAS 23rd June 1827 at Zennor Jane BERRYMAN M. (1) John NEWTON 9th July 1831 at Zennor (m2. Josiah DALLY) Nancy BERRYMAN m. William RICHARDS 28th September 1836 at Zennor Wilmot BERRYMAN m. (unknown) BOASE after 1841 Elizabeth BERRYMAN m. (unknown) CARTER after 1841 I will be trying to track down some more on this tonight and in the coming days. Your latest information will be of help so I will utilise it as I search. That is about it for now. Must attend to a couple of other queries before I get back onto this.
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Post by calswimmer on Sept 2, 2007 13:25:51 GMT -5
Yes, that is a lot of info. thanks--I will try to absorb it. I knew there had to be a connection to the Thomas family, since they always are nearby to the Berrymans in the censuses. As far as Arthur and Jane, I think this is a very interesting mystery. I located Jane Richards and her family in a small town or area called Boscobba. What is interesting is that there is a very young Arthur Berryman (3 months old in 1867) who died there. I think he would be Arthur and Jane's son, brother or twin to Annie. Now if Arthur is the same Arthur who shows up later unmarried, while Jane is "widowed," I would think they divorced or separated.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 2, 2007 13:44:56 GMT -5
I am currently trying to work on all of this to see what more I can find. BOSCOBBA is another farm or hamlet (as I recall without checking my maps) - I just cannot remember exactly where it is in relation to the other places in question. It may take me a few days (nights?) but I will keep working on the information I now have and see what turns up. I have cleared up a few minor points but, unfortunately, not the one you are after just yet. Hopefully have more tomorrow.
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Post by calswimmer on Sept 2, 2007 15:00:31 GMT -5
Boscobba is right next to Polkinghorne. The Richards live in Polkinghorne later on. My google searches lead me to find some pages (google books) from the journal of D.H. Lawrence who refers to the Berryman inn Tinners Arms in Zennor in 1917. Anyway, I don't have any Berryman ancestors, but this research is kind of fun. At least I am learning more about Cornwall, and use of the databases .
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 2, 2007 16:00:47 GMT -5
Regarding William Berryman who 'had an Inn'. Zennor Baptisms 29 Nov 1840 Jane Watters c/o William & Margareet Berryman (Inn Keeper) of Church Town 13 Feb 1842 John c/o William & Margaret Berryman (Innkeeper) of Church Town 18 Jun 1843 John c/o William & Margary Berryman (Inn Keeper) of Church Town 9 Feb 1845 Richard c/o William & Margaret Berryman (Publican) of Church Town 23 May 1847 Thomas c/o William & Margaret Berryman (Publican) of Church Town That takes us through to the end of 1850 at Zennor. I am not sure if I mentioned it but I do have a bit of an interest in the family we have hitherto been discussing. Arthur Berryman (m. Jane MANN) was, I believe, the son of David BERRYMAN and Jane (nee OSBORN). Amongst his siblings Arthur had a brother named William who married Jane MICHELL at Zennor in 1828. Jane MICHELL was daughter of Robert MICHELL and Jane TREWHEELLA (Trewhella). Jane TREWHELLA was a sister to my 4xgt-grandfather. More when I have a chance.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 3, 2007 10:33:26 GMT -5
I also missed one large point in one of your recent notes. The TINNERS ARMS at Zennor. How could I have missed that little item. I have sampled many a pint in the Tinners Arms and have fond memories of it from my visits to Cornwall in 1994 and 1995. Back then it was owned by David Care but I don't know if he still has it. Will do some more work before eating and retiring for the night.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 3, 2007 13:07:36 GMT -5
Re - William BERRYMAN, Publican. 1841 Census, Zennor William Berryman, 25, Publican Margret Berryman, 25 William Berryman, 2 N.K. Berryman, 8 mths Alsinah Broad, 28, female servant I believe him to be the son of William Berryman and Jennifer (nee Eddy) who were married at Gulval in 1810. 1851 Census, Church Town, Zennor William Berryman,head, mar, 35, Innkeeper, Zennor Margaret Berryman, wife, mar, 34, Zennor William Berryman, son, 12, Zennor Jane Berryman, daur, 10, Zennor John Berryman, son, 8, scholar at home, Zennor Richard Berryman, son, 7 scholar at home, Zennor Thomas Berryman, son, 5, scholar at home, Zennor Elizabeth A Curnow, servant, 12, general servant, Zennor 1861 Census, Church Town, Zenno William Berryman, head, widr., 44, victualler and miner, Zennor William Berryman, son, 21, tin miner, Zennor John Berryman, son, 17, tin miner, Zennor Richard Berryman, son, 15, tin miner, Zennor Thomas Berryman, son, 13, employed on a farm, Zennor Cannot find him in 1871. In 1881 William is aged 64, widower, farm labourer living with his unmarried son William aged 39 (stone mason) I guess this cuts William out of the picture regarding Arthur Berryman and the 'children from Oregon'. This is becoming a question of identification. Has the right man been identified (Thomas) and have we identified his parents correctly (Arthur and Ann). I currently think so in both cases so the question then comes back to 'sister-in-law' Jane whom Thomas seems to have married. Will do a little more on this whilst dinner is cooking and then call it quits for the night.
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Post by calswimmer on Sept 4, 2007 15:18:02 GMT -5
I think the Arthur and Thomas you have identified have to be the correct ones. My hypothesis is that Arthur married Jane first. In the census entry for 1871 in John Richards' family in Gulval is Annie Berryman, his granddaughter, and, I believe, the daughter of Arthur and Jane. In the list of his daughters, Jane is there, "Married" but with Richards as her last name. I don't think she is a daughter- in- law of John Richards. Now where is Arthur Berryman in 1871? There is an Arthur Berryman born about 1834 in England, living in Fresno, CA, working as a clerk in a store. He is married, and has no wife in sight on that census. Maybe that's Jane's husband Arthur--that's more of a guess. Later Arthur appears back in Cornwall unmarried (i.e., divorced--I think), while Jane is married to his brother Thomas. That's my guess. So you've been to Tinners Arms! That's pretty neat.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 5, 2007 14:11:15 GMT -5
TINNERS ARMS - Many a pint a drank there. ;D As for the Arthur and Thomas Berryman scenario - I am not totally convinced. I have just checked the 1871 Census record where Annie Berryman (Bergman in the Index) is living with her Richards grandparents and it is interesting that Madron, St Just, Towednack and Gulval feature yet there is no mention of Zennor. But here is something more of interest:- Gulval Baptisms (from online transcripts):- 21 Apr 1867 Arthur c/o Arthur (miner) & Jane Berryman of Boscobba It would appear to be this same Arthur buried at Gulval:- Arthury Berryman of Boscobba aged 3 mths. 14 May 1867 I can find no further children for this couple at Gulval before or after this date (up until 1886) and I can also find no record of marriage for them at Gulval. I can, to a point, see your reasoning but am yet to be convinced until some more positive evidence is forthcoming. And I must say that much of what you put forward is quite reasonable given the available facts. But I am not convinced because there are too many anomalies involved here and i also do not have enough PR information available to work from for the areas we need. I will need to re-read all these notes over the next few nights (as I get the chance) and try to come up with a solution to the problem or, at least, some other avenues of pursuit to try and solve the problem. Given that Arthur is back in Cornwall later, unmarried and with no children present, I think suggests the possibility that we may have two different Arthur Berrymans involved here. This is becoming a little complex and i now have to work on my days off so I will leave it for now and think about it more when I am a little less weary.
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