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Post by Zenobia on Apr 13, 2007 15:37:26 GMT -5
Although to add to the general confusion, there is a Joseph Trewhella, also born in Illogan, son of James and Catherine. He consistantly gives his age however with a birth year of around 1843.
And in 1861, Joseph, son of Matthew and Sally is found twice, once in Camborn, living with a Richards, and claiming Illogan for his birthplace, and once in Illogan with his parents, claiming St. Just as his birthplace.
In 1871 only one Joseph Trewhella is found, b. 1843 in "Pool" Cornwall, and living in St. Agnes.
In 1881 none are found.
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Post by Zenobia on Apr 13, 2007 15:53:47 GMT -5
Another brother was Matthew TREWELLA who was first married to Eliza Jane SPARNON (January 6th, 1861 Tuckingmill, CON). Most of this family is, or was, in either PA or OH and, according to the 1900 Census of the US we have the following:- Matthew Trewella living with his second wife, Amelia, at Union Twp., Schuylkill Co., PA as a Hotel Keeper. Matthew stated in the 1900 Census that he had emigrated to the USA in about 1865! ;D His wife and children arrived in NY 17 Aug 1867 on the ship Palmyra. Couldn't find him arriving...
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 13, 2007 16:06:48 GMT -5
OK KIDS - it is time to play! ;D I have read Becky's first posting (congratulations on becoming part of the team!) and have also noted the comments by 'the Ghost who goes by many names' (Our humble administrator). Now - let me sort out some things here. (BTW - I was cooking a meal and going to sit down and watch a few episodes of Hogan's Heroes - will have to make room on the computer desk for my plate and leave Hogan until later. ) Anyway - to sorting things out! The Joseph Trewheela who married Minnie Williams was born at Illogan in 1842 and was baptised at Illogan June 18, 1848. He married Minnie Williams at Illogan March 9th, 1871 and died at Plymouth December 10th, 1899. (I have a copy of his Will) Joseph and Minnie had five children born in New Zealand. Joseph and Minnie arrived in Victoria, Australia in July 1871 aboard the 'Great Britain' and it seems that they very soon left Melbourne for New Zealand where their first child was born in 1872. Joseph was son of James TREWELLA and Catherine (nee PIDWELL) who were married at Illogan February 8th, 1831. To my knowledge, this Joseph never visited the US but he did, obviously return to England. Without looking things up properly, I think that most people in New Zealand with the name of Trewhella(var.) are connected - except for those who are related to the Russian clan! And I reckon we are lookng at a case of:- TRIGGER-KNOW-MYTREE! ;D So - dear cousins - we are dealing with more than one JOSEPH, are we not? Having (I think) proven that the NZ Joseph is 'out of contention' we have two more candidates to look at. The Joseph who married Elizabeth Curnow was born about the same time as 'our man' but ther are too many things that are uncertain about him. But the third Joseph now becomes another matter. - And I am now almost certain he is the son of Matthew and Sally (nee Williams). I, too, had thought about the 2nd marriage theory for Joseph but the information researched tonight shows that it may be incorrect. Sure - a 2nd marriage may have happened - but we are now dealing with three men of the same name who were born about the same year! Discount the NZ connection because I have researched that family (still more to learn, of course!). And Joseph who married Elizabeth Curnow was probabl;y born in the US about 184?. That leaves the son of Matthew and Sally - and I believe there is enough evidence now to suggest this is the man we have been discussing. Any further thoughts?? Your humble servant Ian
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Post by beckykoelling on Apr 13, 2007 16:13:40 GMT -5
My first thought is that all these people with the same names gives me a HEADACHE!!! It has been tough enough trying to find out who my Matthew's parents were, but my refusal to give up on any member of my direct ancestor's immediate families adds to this headache thing!
Though, I do like knowing that I can cross off the Minnie Williams and New Zealand theory conclusively.
Back to the drawing board.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 13, 2007 16:15:28 GMT -5
BY GOLLY! - I think you are wrong! Please check my latest reply to this dilemma and I think you will find some answers. 'It is not often that I am wrong - but I believe I am right this time' - Quote from Cornish Terrier There may be more to the overall scenario but I believe that at least two of the Joseph Trewhella (sic.) men born about 1847 have now been tracked down. More?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 13, 2007 16:38:25 GMT -5
Becky - NEVER GIVE UP! ;D I know what you are going through and have a fair idea of what you are thinking because I have 'been there and done that'! Now, when you say 'my Matthew' - do you mean the man who married Sally Williams? If that is the man then I can certainly tell you more. He married Sally Williams at St Ives December 5th, 1831 and he was buried at Illogan May 31st, 1863, age 57, of Tuckingmill. That is part of the reason I suspected that the Joseph we were discussing probably belonged here. You see, Sally and some of her children seemed to disappear from the records. But, knowing that at least one son went to the US suggests that Sally and the remainder of her family may have done so after the death of her husband. It is surely more than coincidental that Sally's husband dies in 1863 and nothing more is known of Sally or son Joseph until this latest conversation arose? And remember, we know that John and Jemima (Rule) had already come to the US as had Matthew (m. Eliza Jane Sparnon) so it is logical that Sally and the remainder of her family might follow after the death of her husband. Now - I believe you are looking for the parents of Matthew (m. Sally Williams) - ?? The story can become a little complicated as it appears that Matthew was the last child from the first marriage of his father William. William Treweella m. Elizabeth Hockin at Illogan February 12th, 1791 They had seven children of whom Matthew was the last and then Elizabeth died in 1809. William then married Ann May later that same year and had a further 5 children. The last two children of this marriage (neither survived more than a few months) were named - JOSEPH! Things do get curiouser and curiouser, don't they?
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Post by beckykoelling on Apr 13, 2007 16:50:58 GMT -5
Yes, 'my Matthew' does mean the one who married Sally Williams. I was surprised to find that the English parish records did not offer much information. With so many common names, it makes it very confusing. You should see what my research into Sally's family looks like! With a name like Williams - whew! I had gotten spoiled by my French-Canadian parish records, which give parents names, with the mother's maiden name, even on a marriage record!
'Give up' isn't in my vocabulary, though. I usually take a step back and then find a new angle to look at!
Thanks for the information! ;D
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 13, 2007 17:54:14 GMT -5
The Joseph s/o James and Catherine (consistent age suggesting 1842/3 birth) is the man who went to NZ and then returned to UK. The other Joseph who appears to be enumerated twice is the interesting one. In both cases his age is listed as 14 and, as you mention, he states his birthplace as St Just in one record and then Illogan in the next. It is possible (indeed probable) this is the same fellow given that the Cencus taker would not have covered all of his 'territory' in the one day. So Joseph could well have been enumerated twice! And yes, he is noted as having been born at St Just when recorded with his family. His elder brother Matthew is also recorded as having been born at St Just in the 1861 Census and the Image is clear in both cases! But if you look at the 1851 Census you will find something else. There were then four living children of Matthew Trewhella and Sally (Sarah) (nee Williams). 1851 Census shows the four children:- Eliza, 18, bn St Ives John, 16, bn Camborne Matthew, 9, bn, St Ives Joseph, 4, bn, Illogan And I just know you are going to like this! ;D Matthew and Sally were living at 'Rayle Estate' - enumerator's number 50. And right next door in 'Rayle Estate' - Enumerator's number 51. ....... Matthew's elder brother William and his family! ;D ;D Although it is clear in the Census Record I cannot explain the reference to St Just. I first thought it may have been a 'mis-read' of St Ives which I have seen before. But, as I say, the Image I have of this one is quite clear. The other point is, of course, that the birth may have occurred at St Just with the baptism occurring elsewhere. Anyway, I believe we have 'trapped' our man.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 13, 2007 18:01:46 GMT -5
Becky, Very briefly - and just see if we are both on the same track with Sally Williams. My records show that she was born at Phillack about 1808 and I have found the following (as of 2004):-
Sally Williams bp. Phillack April 16th, 1808 d/o John Williams and Sally (nee Russell)
Does this tie in with what you have?
That is the best I can do on that particular Williams line right now but pleae keep me informed and I will do what I can to help.
BTW - I like the way you think! - Never Give Up! ;D
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 13, 2007 18:32:47 GMT -5
Now here is a very interesting point! I was sitting down to relax before going to bed and thoughts began to cross my 'ever-active' mind. Our Adminstrator will probably best appreciate this but I am running it through here. I don't know how many of you have ever looked at either original, or film of the original Census Records for the UK?? It suddenly crossed my mind that the handwriting in all of these documents is very neat and similar. So - it occurrs to me that most of this is not the work of the 'man on the beat enumerator'! I think that the Census taker has done his/her rounds and then produced the results to the 'head office' where the 'collectors' records have then been transcribed to the form that was used for Official purposes. (This being the form we see today.) SO - as mentioned, I think, in my last - I have seen transcripts of documents where the event (by the transcriber) has been written as 'ST JUST' and it just did not make sense. A look at the original, by myself, (and I am sure Kathie was involved in one of these) showed that the actual place of the event was ST IVES! It therefore stands to reason that once the Census Collector has done his job and had his forms completed he would then take them back to 'head office' where they would be transcribed into what we see today. In that case the person doing the further transcription to the official form would very likely mistake St Ives for St Just and then give us the perpetual error! I have seen it all before ...... Hopefully that thought will help set some minds at ease?
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Post by beckykoelling on Apr 14, 2007 11:17:04 GMT -5
Ian,
For Sally Williams, I have looked at the OPC index of the Phillack parish records, some St. Ives parish records and census records. I have a Sally WILLIAMS, child of John WILLIAMS and Sally RUSSELL, baptized 16 Apr 1808 at Phillack.
Between all of the above records, there is a possibility of 12 children of Sally & John. The confusion really blossoms when I look at census records at St. Ives, which is where I believe that Sally folks were by that time. There are several John WILLIAMS of an age in St. Ives, and it shows up in the parish and census records. One is a barber or hairdresser, one is a fisherman and the other a miner. I am trying to figure out who is who and determine if one is indeed Sally's dad. It almost seems that the barber/hairdresser would be the man due to the children's names.
Hence my headache. I really like to fill in all the blanks and despite the headache, it really is a blast!
I've also had a time figuring out who John WILLIAMS' parents were and where he was from. I think it might be Breage.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 14, 2007 15:15:47 GMT -5
Becky, I have constructed the correct family then there are a few other things for you to consider. Firstly, when Sally Williams married Matthew Trewhella the marriage entry in the Parish Register states that she was then 'of St Ives'. This does not mean she was born there but merely that was her residence at the time. Now, my delvings show that her parents, John Williams and Sally Russell, were married at Phillack in 1808. This information is from Phillimore & Taylor and, unfortunately, the entry does not show an occupation for John. However, I have five 'probable' children listed to this couple and all were baptised in Phillack. In 1815 (bp. James) and 1817 (bp. Francis) John Williams is named as a 'miner of Ventonleague'. A couple of things to check on:- In the 1851 Census for St Ives there is a widowed Sally Williams, age 64, lodging with a Collins Family - her stated birthplace is St Ives. (This 'might' be Sally Russell and it would mean she was about 20 when married.) In the 1841 Census we find something that is 'akin' to what you are thinking. I did a search on 'Sally Williams' and came up with a family at St Ives:- John Williams, age 50, barber Sally Williams, age 50, Francis Williams, age 20, miner Caroline Williams, age 20 Mary Williams, age 15 Eliza Williams, age 13 Jane Williams, age 9 Remember that, in 1841, the ages of anyone over the age of 15 was rounded down (I think) to the nearest 5 - so If Sally was 53 her age was noted as 50. Given that Francis appears here at age 20 then I am thinking this might be the right family. (He was bn. 1817 so that would fit.) Unfortunately, I do not currently have access to St Ives Baptisms that might cover some of the later children. However, I do believe we have something here to work with. I also do not have access to St Ives Burials at the moment so we are in a sort of 'limbo'. But there is something here to work with!
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Post by beckykoelling on Apr 15, 2007 17:12:42 GMT -5
Ian...
We have certainly veered from the Joseph TREWHELLA posting here, and if necessary I can email you about the Williams next time. I appreciate being able to bounce these things off of someone, especially someone who has a knack for this.
I have pushed a little further back in the OPC Phillack records and found a Sally RUSSELL, child of Thomas RUSSELL and Mary DAVIS who was baptized 9 AUG 1787. I also found 27 Jan 1807 for the marriage of John & Sally.
For the children of John & Sally:
Sally - 16 APR 1808/Phillack Thomas - 29 JUL 1810/" " William - 20 May 1812/" " John - 19 JUN 1814/" " James - 7 DEC 1815/" " Francis - 14 SEP 1817/" " Joseph - 4 JUL 1820/" " Caroline - 13 OCT 1822/" " Elizabeth - 27 MAR 1825/" " Mary Margaret(?) - 1826/ Eliza - 1828/ Jane - /1832
From Sally through Elizabeth, I found in the Phillack Baptisms on the OPC website. I went back to those records after I found the census records from St. Ives which indicated that there were more children than I originally thought. The last three girls, Mary Margaret? (the census record was difficult to read), Eliza and Jane, I got only from the census. BUT...Sally married at St. Ives and was 'of St. Ives' by 1828...so sometime between 1825 when Elizabeth was baptized at Phillack and when Sally married in 1828, the family moved on to St. Ives. I don't have current access to anything but some of the St. Ives marriages.
As far as where John was from...one of the census records listed Breage as the parish he was from. I have found some stuff from Breage parish records, but of course there couldn't be a more common name than John WILLIAMS!
Thanks again! ;D
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 16, 2007 15:54:47 GMT -5
What happened to my last reply to this one?? (Or did I, somehow, post it to another section of the list!) However, I am convinced this Joseph (in Oregon) is definitely the son of Matthew Trewhella and Sally (nee Williams). The NZ Joseph I know enough about to say that he could not possibly have been the one and the man who married Elizabeth Curnow is (almost certainly) in the same category. No - we are dealing with the son of Matthew and Sally!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 16, 2007 16:00:30 GMT -5
Stop looking! - I Found It! ;D I have been concentrating on other things (including the Cricket tonight) and neglected to look back properly through this thread. So, when I next get a decent chance I will work through it again and see what else I can offer.
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