Young of St. Ives

[Loolah]

I am so stuck! I have James Young (born who knows where and when) married to Anne Purefoy on 16 September 1771 in St. Ives. The entry says James was from outside of the parish and a soldier.
Their children, Peter and James, survived and lived happily ever after but the story has it that their father James died/drowned and Anne remarried in 1773 to James Berriman.
So far no evidence has been found to prove how, when or where James died or that it's the same Ann. Can anyone shed any light on this?
Loolah (still pulling out her hair )

[londoner]

Having looked at the entries in Phillimore the second marriage is between James Berriman and Ann Purefoy. You would expect it to say Ann Young,w (widow) if it was the same person.
But there only seems to be one Ann b in St Ives at the right time

[Cornish Terrier]

Loolah - save your hair!

Firstly - I think someone, somewhere along the line, is having a lend of someone regarding Ann Purefoy!

I agree with Londoner that if Ann YOUNG was widowed and then married James BERRIMAN that she would have been married as 'Ann YOUNG, widow' and not under her maiden name.

So I am sure there are two separate Ann PUREFOYs involved.

Now - there is a burial at St Ives that may be of interest to you:-

Ann YOUNG, age 81, buried 16th February 1819

This would place her birth around 1837 and I am sure this was the widow of James YOUNG.

The Ann who married James BERRIMAN was buried at St Ives 26th January 1827 age 80 - her birth therefore around 1746.

I think this second may actually have been baptised at St Ives 5th January 1749 d/o John and Jane but I am not sure as yet.

I can find only one child to James and Ann YOUNG and that is son James baptised 15th July 1772 at St Ives.

This would fit with the elder James possibly dying around 1772 or 1773.

Perhaps NEWLYN might try to check on this but if he died 'at sea' then there will probably be no burial recorded for him unless his body was recovered.

I think Peter comes in with the next generation.

James YOUNG of Penzance married Jane TONKIN of Penzance 17th March 1798 at Madron.

Having checked baptisms for Penzance/Madron I am sure this is your James and the marriage coincides with baptisms occurring at St Ives.

Hmmm - checking St Ives baptisms and I find there was certainly another Peter.

Peter YOUNG, seaman, married Sarah GEEN 9th April 1799 at St Ives

I can so far find no record of a baptism for Peter in IGI and have not had a chance to check other sources as yet.

However, I would suggest that if he were the son of James and Ann YOUNG then his birth is going to be 1773 or later which would mean that his mother most certainly could not have married James BERRIMAN in 1773.

It is also possible that this Peter may not be a son of 'your' James.

Interestingly there is a Peter YOUNG s/o James and Lydia baptised 4th February 1770 at Thorley, Hampshire.

So I wonder if James was perhaps married twice?

James YOUNG married Lydia GRUELL (or CRUELL) 5th July 1769 at Winchester, Hampshire

There was also an Elizabeth d/o James and Lydia baptised at Thorley, Hampshire, 19th January 1772

That means that his is a different James.

I will need to do some more work on this over the coming days but at least there is a start.

There are numerous children to James and Jane at St Ives and I will also update those into my database as I think they probably belong to you.

Might be handy if you could supply a little further information on your link back to the first James and Ann.

See how you go with that and I will take it from there.

CT

[Loolah]

Thank you everyone especially Cornish Terrier, you have done a lot of work on this.
I have often wondered if there were two Ann Purefoys as I would have also expected her second marriage entry to have read 'widow'. Moreover, if she had remarried when she had such young children would they not have adopted the Berriman name?I shall certainly consider the Ann Young buried in 1819 though I feel that Ann (d/o John and Jane bpt. 1749) is the right one. There is the possibility of course, that James didn't die but lived on or maybe even moved on?
I have lots on the son, James, who married Jane Tonkin in 1798, and their children so I'm fairly OK on them.
As for the Peter Youngs, it has taken me ages to try and sort this one out (another hair pulling moment!). The Peter Young who married Sarah Green died in March 1831 age abt. 57 and is buried, I believe in Madron ( His age casts doubt on the death date of James the elder). They had two children, Sarah b. 1800 and Peter b. 1804.
The confusion comes in the fact that James and Jane (nee Tonkin) also named one of their sons Peter. He was born in 1806. So you have two Peter Youngs of similar age in the same place. The first Peter became a Mariner, and the second Peter became a Painter and moved to London and I have him from then onwards. In his later years he retruned to St. Ives where he died in 1888.
My link to this family is through Thomas Young b. 1804 (s/o James and Jane). He also went to London where he married Charlotte Rippin in 1829. One of their sons, George Edward Young, is my 2xgreatgrandfather.
I am also in touch with the descendant of Thomas's brother, John Tonkin Young. He also went to London and like Thomas became a Freeman of the City of London. He was a builder and had several children one of whom went to Australia and set up a school which produced many 'great and good' of Oz.
All rather long winded I'm afraid.
Anway, if you or anyone can help with the first James Young, it would keep my sanity, not to mention hair!

[Loolah]

Just a thought! I've had another look at my old notes and found a reference to the burial of James Young on 12 April 1788 in Madron. No age is given but I wonder whether this might be the first James Young and that he didn't drown after all.
What do you think? Is there anyway of finding out more?
Loolah
Note to self - read old notes more often!

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Loolah.

That is an interesting reference but unfortunately I do not have access to Madron Burials for that period to check.

More interesting given that the younger James married at Madron.

There is no reference to a Young burial in the years 1813-1860 at Madron and certainly no baptisms from 1756-1810 so it is even more curious.

Regarding Ann Purefoy - I have to disagree with you there.

Given the paucity of the Young name in the area I have to submit that the Ann Young buried at St Ives in 1819 at the age of 81 is most likely to have been the wife of your James.

That would place her birth around 1738.

Now, if the burial at Madron in 1788 is indeed your James and there is no evidence of children other than James (confirmed with baptism) and possibly Peter it might suggest a late marriage.

That would fit with Ann certainly being a little older and possibley born about 1738.

She would have been about 34 at marriage and less likely to have more than a couple of children.

The Ann who married James Berriman was buried in 1827 at the age of 80 and this is certainly a close match to the Ann Purefoy baptised in 1849.

I have updated the children of James and Jane and having a bit of a look around.

Cannot promise anything immediately but will let you know if I find something.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Loolah - her is perhaps something you may not have had.

James s/o James and Jane Young (bp. 1798) married Frances HARRY at St Ives 30th January 1822.

They had a daughter Francis Maria born and died 1822 age 2 months and then Frances died in 1823.

I just found the following in the St Ives Wesleyan Chapel Baptisms:-

4th March 1827 Tonkin son of James YOUNG of St Ives (Tallow Chandler) and Martha his wife, who was the daughter of John and Elizabeth Paynter was born 13 Jan 1827 and was baptised by George Taylor.

1st September 1828 James son of James YOUNG of St Ives (Tallow Chandler) and Martha his wife, who was the daughter of John and Elizabeth Paynter was born 31 July 1828 and was baptised by George Taylor.

28th September 1829 Martha Paynter daughter of James YOUNG of St Ives and Martha his wife, who was the daughter of John and Elizabeth Paynter was born 11 September 1829 and was baptised by Ralph Scurrah.

22nd March 1831 Edward son of James YOUNG of St Ives and Martha his wife, who was the daughter of John and Elizabeth Paynter was born 7 February 1831 and was baptised by William Davies.

7th August 1832 Cowper son of James YOUNG of St Ives and Martha his wife, who was the daughter of John and Elizabeth Paynter was born 29 July 1832 and was baptised by William Davies.

I am not yet sure where James and Martha married but there is a little something for you to play with.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Loolah - a little more for you to play with.

In 1841 James and Martha were living at Tregenna Place, St Ives.

They had only one child, Cowper age 9, living with them on Census night.

In 1851 Martha is a widowed ship owner and has son James and daughter Martha living with her.

It looks like this James probably died in the March Quarter of 1848 given he appeared in the 1841 Census.

There were two James Youngs died in the Penzance R.D. in 1840.

And there was a Sarah in 1845 who may have been the wife of Peter.

Will leave it at that for the time being as I have other work to do and it would appear that I need to reboot this PC.

CT

[Loolah]

Ct - you are so kind to look into this for me and I am most grateful but I feel I must tell you that I do have all of the information you have so kindly found. I know about James first marriage and the offspring and his later marriage and children etc. There are also a few kissing cousins amongst these Youngs which has made research a challenge.
However, I think I am rather inclined to think you are right about the older Ann. I am seriously thinking that the family story that James drowned is erroneous and that he did in fact live. I now need to trace his death and maybe it is he who died in 1788.
I shall don dearstalker and whip out the ol' magnifying glass and hope for the best.
I hope your pc is OK.
My thanks again
Loolah

[Cornish Terrier]

Loolah - it is my pleasure and no problem at all.

I love getting my teeth into a problem and most times I add the information to my own database in case it helps me or someone else later down the track.

It also helps me learn a few things along the way and gives me ideas to keep in mind for later research.

And whilst writing this I just had another thought!

I had forgotten to check the OPC site for this and guess what - here are the three burials:-

James Young buried 12th March 1788 Madron (no age recorded)

James Young of Penzance age 68? buried 2nd August 1840 Penzance, St Mary (Madron Chapelry)

James Young of Penzance age 1 month buried 5th January 1840 Penzance, St Mary (Madron Chapelry)

So the second one is your James of about 1773!

It also suggests the possibility that the 1788 burial might just be that of the early James.

Please keep up your appearance here and keep us informed and also throw in any other little queries you might have for us to look at.

CT

[Loolah]

CT,
You have come up trumps once again
It looks like the 1840 burial is my James bpt. 1772 - yipee
I am about to order the death cert in the hope it might add a wee bit more inf. I shall also request the death cert for the baby James to establish his parentage as there are a couple of potential parents.
I will keep you posted. Now, if only I could find out where the first James Young came from.....
Loolah

[Cornish Terrier]

Glad to be of help.

But be aware that you may not find much from the Certificates as those in the UK did not have provision for the names of parents.

However, in the case of the infant the informant may give some clues as will the address where he died.

It may be possible in this case that the parents are recorded so let's hope so.

The early James will be extremely difficult I think unless we can locate a Will somewhere that will be of help.

Don't forget to keep us all informed of your progress and we can also look at the other names.

CT

[Loolah]

Hello CT - back again
I have the death certs for the two James Youngs who died in 1840.
Firstly, James Young s/o James and Ann died age 68 on 28 July 1840. And guess what? he died at Quay Street, PZ, which is where his nephew,Peter Young - master mariner, later lived. His occupation was recorded as plasterer (a trade one of his sons followed in London). So I think we may have a link there.
Secondly, James Young age 1 month died 2 January 1840 at Battery Square, PZ. His father was Peter Young, master mariner.
The informant was Elizabeth Williams. Interestingly the informant on the other cert. was James Williams, Occupier, Quay Street.
I'm going to look at the 1841 census to see if either Williams is still there.
By the way, is Battery Square any where near Quay Street?
The plot thickens!
Keep in touch
Loolah

[Cornish Terrier]

G'day Loolah - nice to have some feedback on this one.

Firstly - I am most confused as I have just looked at the 1841 Census using both Ancestry and FreeCen and cannot find any reference to a Williams living in Penzance!

Something just don't seem right here!

Anyway - I am referring, at the moment, to a more modern street map of Penzance and will take another guess.

Battery Road is now just South of Penzance Harbour and becomes the Promenade leading down towards Newlyn.

Just off Battery Road are 'Battery Rocks' so I would suggest that Battery Square is in that vicinity.

I cannot find Quay Street in the Index but 'The Quay' runs down along the Harbour and becomes Battery Road so I would suggest that this may have been known as Quay Street way back then.

Checking back on the 1841 Census - I thought I might try Madron and there is a James and Peggy Williams (both age 55) and living next to them a James and Elizabeth Williams (both age 35).

This suggests the family of father and son but ...

Both of these men are tin smelters which may have nothiing to do with the problem but at least we have a James and Elizabeth Williams.

I cannot quite decipher the address but it is something like 'Leskennah Terrace' so certainly not Quay Street.

I think a red herring.

These Williams people may have absolutely nothing to do with things (they were informants at the two events!) but either way I would like to know where they were in 1841!!

I won't copy it all here just now but were you aware that Peter Young married twice??

It appears he married Eliza Pidwell Balke at Madron in 1827 and then married a widowed Ann Davies at Madron in 1853. (She was daughter of John Davies so it would appear had married a cousin of the same name! :

It might well be worth pursuing those Williams people - but where the heck were they in 1841??

It does seem there might be a link.

Cannot do much more right now - had a meeting tonight and a few beers for the first time in ........ so not quite thinking straight.

Also have a few issues out of the meeting to think about.

However that is not your problem and I certainly appreciate you keeping involved here and keeping me/us up to date with progress.

Now that you have the death certificate for the elder James there is something a little more concrete to work from so let's hope a bit of digging will produce that little clue to tie him back to wherever he belongs.

Please keep up the discussion here 'cos I don't like to be beaten!

Will help as much as I can.

CT

[londoner]

Scrolling through the Cornwall Online Census project for 1841 (nicely transcribed by people with more sense than those on some sites we know of ) I found at Battery Square:

Eliza Young 35,
Peter 4
Nancy 6

Presumably master mariner Peter was at sea the night of the census

AND her next door neighbour Elizabeth Williams 60 (with husband Samuel & family)

and in 1851:
Peter Young 46
Eliza P Young 46
Samuel Young 21
Ann D Young 16
Peter Young 14
Sarah Ann Young 8