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Post by Sarch on Apr 28, 2009 2:06:31 GMT -5
Hi
I can't find Bessie Wallis in the 1891 Census.
Bessie Inch daughter of Thomas Inch married Robert Wallis on 07 Jul 1887 Penzance St Pauls
In the 1891 Census Robert is at home with his parents and listed as married. Although Bessie and Robert married in 1887 the first child that I have for them is Hilda, born in 1891 - was Bessie somewhere having a child during the Census?
Robert Wallis' residence on marriage was listed as being in Newcastle on Tyne Bessie's residence was St Pauls.
Penzance, St Pauls - Licence 7 Jul 1887 Groom Robert Wallis age 27 occ Mechanical Engineer, Residence St Matthews Newcastle on Tyne, Father Robert Wallis, occ Builder, Bride Bessie Inch age 27 Res St Pauls, Father Thomas Inch, occ Chandler, Witnesses John Nancarrow Wallis, Carry Inch
Sarch
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Post by HeatherC on Apr 28, 2009 6:56:50 GMT -5
Hello Sarch The date for 1891 UK Census was 5 April............. Looking through the UK BMD index (births) from March 1887 - December 1893 for Newcastle upon Tyne and Penzance District the only record of birth for a Hilda WALLIS is this one March Qtr 1891, Newcastle upon Tyne Vol 10b Page 156 From this it is then possible for it to have been Hilda Wallis d/o Robert and Bessie, and if the birth was in the latter part of the Qtr, for Bessie to have been in the Newcastle area at the time of the 1891 Census (5 April). I see that the family are living in Newcastle at the time of the 1901 Census. Perhaps they intended to move there at around the time of Bessie's due date so thought it safer for Bessie to travel up well in advance to be confined there? The only way to tell if this birth is Robert and Bessie's daughter is to send for the birth certificate. I have been looking through the 1891 Census for Bessie and Hilda but like you, no luck. They could of course been lodging with somebody until Robert's arrival and been enumerated under the same surname as the householder........ Or as does happen, missed off the returns......... Could even be the that the page has been lost to us Best regards HeatherC
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 28, 2009 7:20:14 GMT -5
I am having difficulty finding her also. Checking the 1881 Census Bessie was daughter of Thomas and Mary Ann Inch. In 1891 Thomas was lodging back at St Austell whilst Mary Ann was living alone at Penzance. (Both recorded as married.) Daughter Hilda was registered in the March Qtr of 1891 so I would expect her to also be in the Census. However she may not have been named at the time so may appear as simply 'daughter' or something similar. Checking for Robert whom you say is at home with his parents in 1891 and I have so far come up with a Robert WALLIS age 30, single, screwing machine man, born Newcastle on Tyne. This seems right except that he is single and he is living with his brother John George WALLIS at Wallsend in Northumberland. I cannot find another Robert WALLIS of the right age living with parents where the father is also named Robert. Could you supply me with exact details of the Census entry where you found him (including spelling of names) and i will do a bit more searching. Given I have correctly identified Bessie's parents then she was certainly not with them in 1891. She may have been with a sibling so if you know anything about them it would be worth checking. The 1891 Census was taken on the 5th/6th April so if Hilda was 'registered' in the March Qtr I should certainly expect to find her. Problem is she could have been born anywhere from about December 1890 through to the end of March 1891. AHA - the plot thickens. Very easy to find in 1901 and I now know that Robert was also born at Penzance. But that does not change the fact that I could not find Robert with his parents in 1891 as I did not specifiy a place of birth when I searched. I now presume that he might have been 'at home' back in Cornwall. HUH - just found him? Searched for Rob* born Penzance 1861 living anywhere in England - Robert MALLIS at Penzance with parents Robert J and Susanna! Now the question is just where to look for Bessie from here? Daughter Hilda was born in Northumberland probably not very long before the Census so with Robert back at Penzance it seems an unusual scenario. A similar search using Bess* or Bessy has produced no results. And likewise no result searching for Hilda born 1891 or 1890. I have no further ideas at the moment short of purchasing a birth certificate to Hilda to find out exactly where and on what date she was born. All I can do for now. CT
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Post by HeatherC on Apr 28, 2009 7:35:34 GMT -5
Hi CT I had trouble finding Robert too........ then I found him on Ancestry recorded as Robert MALLIS. He's here on the Cornwall Online Census Project freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kayhin/1859.htmlScroll down to Folio 5, Page 3, Entry 17. Best regards HeatherC WHOOPS! Should have finished reading your post before I posted the above........ I see you found him lol!
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Post by Sarch on Apr 28, 2009 8:37:51 GMT -5
Well if Robert was living in Newcastle upon Tyne at the time of his marriage and Hilda was born there I am sure that she is his daughter - that probably explains why Bessie did not travel to Cornwall with him as travel with a small baby was difficult. I had been wondering if Bessie had died and the children were from another wife as it was over 3 years before they had children - unless of course I have missed some. Hilda 1891 Robert 1892 Lillian 1894 here is the 1891 CensusPiece: RG12/1859 Place: Penzance -Cornwall Enumeration District: 23 Civil Parish: Penzance Ecclesiastical Parish: St. Mary's Penzance Folio: 5 Page: 3 Schedule: 17 Address: 4 Victoria Place -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks WALLIS Robert J Head M M 69 Carpenter(Notem) Cornwall - Penzance WALLIS Susanna Wife M F 66 Cornwall - St Mawes WALLIS Robert Son M M 30 Draughtsman Marine Eng.(Em'ee) Cornwall - Penzance WALLIS John N Son S M 29 Carpenter(Em'ee) Cornwall - Penzance Is Northumberland the correct Census County to search for people in Newcastle?I have searched for Bessie also Elizabeth and Hilda and also under Wallace with no luck and have also tried Mallis just in case Sarch
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 28, 2009 11:58:19 GMT -5
Hi Heather - looks like our posts crossed paths but we arrived at the same information/conclusions.
Sarch - at that particular time Northumberland appears to have been correct. I think it became Tyne and Wear sometime later.
I also tried searching with no surname but had no luck at all.
Heather and I have both arrived at the same conclusion that the best way to find her might be to get the Birth Certificate for Hilda.
But is it worth the expense given that Bessie was alive and well in 1901 with Robert and the kids?
CT
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Post by londoner on Apr 29, 2009 13:12:00 GMT -5
I have had a search and also cant find her. I thought I might look at her siblings and found another puzzle with brother Harry and wife Ada Gertrude( b 1859 Liverpool) no marriage that I can find. over to you Poirot
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Post by HeatherC on Apr 29, 2009 14:44:48 GMT -5
Hi Londoner Will Miss Marple do ? Penzance St Paul, 12 October 1878 Harry Inch, 21, Carpenter of Penzance. Father Thomas Inch, Tallow Chandler To Edith PLOMER , age 21 of Penzance. Father Samuel, Sea Captain. Witnesses Amy Plomer and Ann Colenso. Gives first name as Edith on Freebmd and on the index. Plot thickens as in all the Census I can find Ada Gertrude but no Edith??? And in the England and Wales Christening Records 1530-1906 there is this record Ann Gertrude Plomer Birth date 18 June 1858, baptism 27 March 1859 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Father Samuel Plomer Mother Ann The baptisms for daughter Amy gives the mothers name as Gertrude My head hurts now......... think this needs Inspector Morse HeatherC
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 29, 2009 15:32:19 GMT -5
So late now that I will have to take a good look at this tomorrow. But I was working on another problem earlier tonight that seems to have some similarities. Trying to sort out the PERRY family to help with another thread and it brought in a few other loose ends I had floating about. This included the TRIGGS family. John TRIGGS married Rebecca JAMES at Lelant in 1828. Thereafter all children were baptised with the mother's name recorded as JOANNA/JOHANNA. Can fill more on this at a later date but it certainly has similarities! CT
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Post by Sarch on Apr 29, 2009 23:40:35 GMT -5
hello Miss Marple & Poirot
this is what I have on the Inch siblings
Bessie m Robert Wallis Mary m James Sampson Harry m Edith Plomer ? Ada Plomer? William nothing concrete on william yet
Mary Inch Penzance St Pauls 18 Nov 1890 James Sampson age 34 butcher res St Johns father Henry Sampson deceased, bride Mary Inch age 37 res St Pauls, Father Thomas Inch Chandler Witnesses Margaret Jackson Jane S Colenso
1891 census Piece: RG12/1858 Place: Penzance -Cornwall Enumeration District: 17 Civil Parish: Penzance Ecclesiastical Parish: St. John's Penzance Folio: 14 Page: 22 Schedule: 153 Address: 55 St James Street ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Surname First name(s) Rel Statu Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks SAMPSON James Head M M 35 Butcher(Notem) Cornwall - Penzance SAMPSON Mary Wife M F 37 Milliner/dress(Notem) Cornwall - Penzance
Harry Inch Penzance St Pauls 12 Oct 1878 Harry Inch age 21 Carpenter Res Penzance Father Thomas Inch occ Tallow Chandler bride Edith Plomer age 21 Res Penzance Father Samuel Plomer occ Sea Captain Witnesses Amy Plomer Ann Colenso
1891 Census Piece: RG12/1859 Place: Penzance -Cornwall Enumeration District: 24 Civil Parish: Penzance Ecclesiastical Parish: St. Mary's Penzance Folio: 29 Page: 15 Schedule: 113 Address: 24 Bay View Terrace -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks INCH Harry Head M M 33 Carpenter/joiner(Em'ee) Cornwall - Penzance INCH Ada G Wife M F 32 Lancashire - Liverpool Page: 29/16 INCH Mary G Dau - F 6 Scholar Cornwall - Penzance INCH May L Dau - F 2 Cornwall - Penzance GREEN Willie Boardr - M 6 Scholar Somerset - Bath Did Edith die and he married Ada or has the minister got it wrong? William Inch - Census record possible for William? 1891 Census Piece: RG12/1859 Place: Penzance -Cornwall Enumeration District: 25 Civil Parish: Penzance Ecclesiastical Parish: St. Mary's Penzance Folio: 43 Page: 4 Schedule: 28 Address: Vounderveor Lane Vounder House -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks INCH William Head M M 43 Joiner/cabmaker/undert'r Em'er Cornwall - Penzance Page: 44/5 INCH Catherine Wife M F 44 Cornwall - Penzance INCH Catherine Dau S F 13 Scholar Cornwall - Penzance
Bessie Inch m Robert Wallis Is Hilda b Mar Quarter 1891 their first living child?
Regards
Sarch
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Post by Sarch on Apr 30, 2009 0:01:57 GMT -5
Here is what I have on Bessie's parents
Thomas Inch m Mary Ann Knight Madron, Banns 26 April 1846 Groom Thomas Inch age 22 Batchelor, occupation Chandler, Residence Penzance, Father Thomas Inch occupation Chandler, Bride Mary Ann Knkght age 25 Spinster, Residence Penzance, Father William Knight, occupation Cabinet maker, Witnesses Charles Richards, J. Read.
1861 Census Piece: RG9/1595 Place: Penzance -Cornwall Enumeration District: 23 Civil Parish: Madron Ecclesiastical Parish: Penzance Folio: 12 Page: 17 Schedule: 97 Address: 2 Regent Place -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks INCH Thomas Head M M 37 Tallow Chandler Cornwall - St Austle INCH Mary A Wife M F 39 Dressmaker Cornwall - Penzance INCH William Son U M 13 Carpenters Ap Cornwall - Penzance INCH Thomas Son U M 9 Scholar Cornwall - Penzance INCH Mary A Dau U F 7 Scholar Cornwall - Penzance INCH Harry Son U M 3 Scholar Cornwall - Penzance INCH Bessie Dau - F 1 Cornwall - Penzance KNIGHT George Visitr M M 31 Boot & Shoe Maker Cornwall - Penzance
1891 Census Thomas Inch Piece: RG12/1822 Place: St Austell -Cornwall Enumeration District: 9 Civil Parish: St. Austell Ecclesiastical Parish: Charleston Folio: 113 Page: 11 Schedule: 77 Address: - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks ROBINS William Head W M 73 General Labourer(Em'ee) Cornwall - Mevagissey ROBINS James Son S M 26 General Labourer(Em'ee) Cornwall - St Austell INCH Thomas Lodger M M 68 Tallow Chandler(Em'ee) Cornwall - St Austell
Mary Ann Knight 1891 census Piece: RG12/1858 Place: Penzance -Cornwall Enumeration District: 20 Civil Parish: Penzance Ecclesiastical Parish: St. Paul's Penzance Folio: 70 Page: 8 Schedule: 54 Address: 7 St Clare Street -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation WhereBorn Remarks INCH Mary Ann Head M F 70 Cornwall - Penzance
Sarch
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 30, 2009 2:52:32 GMT -5
EDITH or ADA Could this simply be a matter of accent and what the clerk 'heard' as he was recording the event? Might be worth keeping in mind but would also be worth following up the PLOMER family a little more. CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 30, 2009 2:59:22 GMT -5
1871 Census
Alma Terrace, Penzance
Samuel PLOMER, head, widr., 63, retired seaman, Mullion Richard C do., son, 14, scholar, Liverpool Ada G do., daur, 12, scholar, Liverpool Amy ? do., daur, 10, scholar, born at sea Samuel H do., son, 7, scholar, Liverpool Mary J SECCOMBE, housekeeper, unm., 29, house keeper, Paul Harriet A do., lodger, unm., 20, draper's assistant, Mousehole
How does that look?
Will try and have another look at this after the News.
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 30, 2009 3:42:17 GMT -5
Possibly parents of Samuel:- 1861 Census Church Village, Mullion Samuel PLOMER, head, mar., 80, retired fisherman, Mullion Rebekah do., wife, mar., 81, Breage Rebekah do., daur., unm., 54, Mullion Will have a look now and see if I can find the younger Samuel. CT Oh Dear !!! - just realised - if Amy was born 'at sea' about 1861 then I won't find the family in the 1861 Census.
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Post by HeatherC on Apr 30, 2009 4:02:02 GMT -5
England & Wales Christening Records 1530-1906Name: Richard Ernest Plomer Gender: Male Birth Date: 31 Aug 1856 Christening Date: 27 Dec 1857 Christening Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England Age at Christening: 1 Father's Name: Samuel Plomer Mother's Name: Gertrude Name: Ann Gertrude Plomer Gender: Female Birth Date: 18 Jun 1858 Christening Date: 27 Mar 1859 Christening Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England Age at Christening: 0 Father's Name: Samuel Plomer Mother's Name: Gertrude Name: Amy Falkland Plomer Gender: Female Birth Date: 19 Sep 1860 Christening Date: 27 Jan 1861 Christening Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England Age at Christening: 0 Father's Name: Samuel Plomer Mother's Name: Gertrude Marriages Liverpool Dec Qtr 1854 Vol 8b Page 180 Samuel Plomer Gertrude Spuring Births Liverpool Sep Qtr 1858 Vol 8b Page 153 Ada Gertrude Plomer Deaths Liverpool Sep Qtr 1865 Vol 8b Page 201 Gertrude Oliver Linden Plomer Best regards HeatherC
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