William JOHNS of South Hill/Calstock area

[judylynn]

Continuing the discussion from the "JOHNS, OSBORNE, MURTON, DAWES" thread in Surname Interests ... we're talking about William JOHNS, farm labourer b. circa 1795-98, who was buried 30 Sep 1874. In 1822 he married Elizabeth "Betsy" OSBORNE, b. circa 1801, buried 5 Dec 1880. In 1841 they're found at Clitters Lodge ... in 1851 at Dimson ... in 1861 at Gunnislake ... can't find any notes for 1871.

Apr 1, 2009 3:32:17 GMT -5 Cornish Terrier said:

In the 1861 Census William's birthplace is again recorded as Southill but his age (65) now reflects a birth about 1795/6.

And it is at this point that I have become confused.

That's about where I stopped, too, for the same reason!

William s/o William and Grace JOHNS bp. 2nd October 1796 South Hill

8th May 1793 South Hill by Banns
William JOHNS, single man of South Hill
Grace SOWDEN, spinster of South Hill
Witnesses:- Joseph Williams, John Lawndry

At this point we are still dealing with South Hill where the first JOHNS marriage I have found is 1739. (There may be earlier if the name is recorded as JOHN.)

I found that SOWDEN marriage, too, and left it in my file as "most likely parentage." Billy & Betsy (as I fondly call them) did name an elder daughter Grace, but that's not enough proof for me. Would love to know who else is at South Hill! (And which is more correct -- two words or one? Oh, and where exactly is it? It's not on my maps -- a small village?)

Something to support the William & Grace theory: While the census records Billy & Betsy's son as Thomas O. JOHNS (presumably named for his grandpa, Thomas OSBORNE), later in life he calls himself Thomas Sowden JOHNS. Hmm.

Incidentally, Calstock burials include William JOHNS on 16 May 1832, age 58 (b. 1774); and Grace JOHNS on 5 Feb 1836, age 66 (b. 1770) -- she of Dimson. I have a penciled-in note of NICHOLAS near Grace's name on my chart -- need to check again, but perhaps she married twice?

Another possible set of parents is from Breage, John JOHNS & Elizabeth (BLEE) -- don't recall why I thought so, but I'll throw it out there.

Due to their geographical proximity, I'm wondering whether there was a connection with the family of Stephen JOHNS & Betty Keen (BATE). He was parish clerk at Calstock; buried there 20 Aug 1849 at age 80 (ergo b. 1769). Betty was buried 26 Mar 1863 at age 86 (ergo b. 1777). I have info on their kids and grandkids etc., but nothing to confirm a relationship (uncle?) to Billy & Betsy -- nor to deny one.

There's also a couple in Calstock of appropriate age to be the parents of Stephen and/or the William m. to Grace: Stephen JOHNS, a mason, buried 11 Feb 1774 and the wife he married in 1762, Parthenia (WILLIAMS), buried 29 Dec 1771.

Then there's the question of another John JOHNS, b. circa 1797. Could be my Billy's brother; could be nothing. Billy & Betsy's son Joseph JOHNS immigrated to Ulster County, N.Y. in 1868/9, and died soon after in 1874. Living with his widow and children in 1875 (all "paupers" at the almshouse) was a John JOHNS, widower, age 78, b. England, laborer. Can't find him in NY in 1870 or 1880. With a common name like that, of course, there are several records that could be him. But if William & Grace turn out to have a son John, that might be my link!

Enough for now, eh?
~JudyLynn

[Cornish Terrier]

can't find any notes for 1871.

Were you trying really, really hard?

I have found him in one hit by searching for William JOHNS born Cornwall 1797 +/-2 and resident England. ;D

Ecclesiastical District of St Andrews
Civil Parish of Calstock
Town or Village of Gunnislake

No 19 Lower T?? (extremely difficult but looking at next must be Dimson)

William JOHNS, head, mar., 75, miner labourer, Cornwall Southill
Elizth do., wife, mar., 70, Cornwall Calstock

The family enumerated immediately before him may be of interest.

11 Lower Dimson

William JOHNS, head, mar., 37, miner, Cornwall Calstock
Jane do., wife, mar., 42, Cornwall Gwennap
Martha Jane do., daur, 13, mine girl, Cornwall Gwennap
William do., son, 11, mine boy, Cornwall
Johanna do., daur, 9, scholar, Cornwall
John do., son, 7, scholar, Cornwall
Minnie do., daur, 5, scholar, Cornwall
Thos Hey do., son, 10 months, Calstock

I think the birthplace of those children will be Gwennap although it is extremely difficult to decipher the writing.

In 1881 this younger William states his birthplace as Gunnislake and he is now 'blind'.
Jane's birthplace is recorded as St Day which is now what was part of Gwennap.
The birthplace of son William is now recorded as Crofthandy whilst the remaining children (except for Thomas) are born St Day.

Thomas is recorded as born Gunnislake as is the new edition James born about 1873.

Time to have another read of the relevant posts in this thread and then see if I can find something else for you.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

SOUTHILL or SOUTH HILL

I have seen it documented both ways and on my Parish map it is shown as South Hill and it appears thus in the 1994 AA for Great Britain.

It is actualy a Parish and is bordered to the Northwest by Linkinhorne, the Northeast by Stoke Climsland, the Southwest by St Ive and the Southeast by Callington.

Calstock is immediately to the East of Callington.

The following link should offer a couple of other links to find out more about the Parish.

www.cornwall-opc.org/Par_new/q_s/south_hill.php

More to follow.

[Cornish Terrier]

I have just been checking through the South Hill Parish Register Transcripts and it is very interesting.

It would certainly appear that we need to look elsewhere for anything much beyond William and Grace.

Baptisms 1614-1837

15 May 1740 William s/o William and Joan
24 Dec 1743 Mark s/o William and Joan
18 Oct 1747 Elizabeth d/o William and Elizabeth
29 Sep 1781 James s/o John and Ann
2 Oct 1785 James s/o John and Ann
3 Aug 1788 Mary d/o John and Ann
17 Mar 1793 (1794?) Jenny d/o William and Grace
21 Jul 1793 Ann d/o John and Ann
2 Oct 1796 William s/o William and Grace
28 Oct 1798 Elizabeth d/o William and Grace
1 Jan 1808 Charlotte d/o Richard and Margaret
17 Apr 1808 Jane d/o John and Ann (*Mary)
3 Feb 1811 Stephen s/o John and Ann

That is the total.

Burials 1614-

11 Jan 1743 Mark s/o William and Joan (1744?)
17 Feb 1769 Elizabeth (1770?)
10 Sep 1774 Joan
25 Jan 1781 William, 70 (1782?)
8 Jul 1785 James
14 Oct 1803 John, 71
19 Nov 1814 Jane, 73, Trewassic
15 May 1855 Richard William Cocks, 4, Trewoodla
4 Nov 1856 Susanna Raby, 4, Trewoodlaw

I stopped here but those are all I could find.

I will check for marriages and put them in another post just in case something stupid happens and I lose this one. (Which has happened before! )

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Contd. - Marriages 1566 -

3 Jul 1739 William JOHNS and Jone d/o Mark DEACON (decd.) by Banns

8 May 1793 William JOHNS and Grace SOWDEN (as previously posted)

24 Jun 1803 Richard JOHNS bachelor of South Hill and Margaret RETALLICK of South Hill

12 Mar 1806 John JOHNS bachelor of South Hill and Ann BENNETT spinster of South Hill

There are a couple of the girls married and then we jump to 1846

M714, 1846, Apr, 23, JOHNS Oliver (M), of full age, bachelor, Labourer, Mornick, William Johns, Labourer., HOOPER Mary (M), of full age, spinster, Manaton Mills, William Hooper, Labourer., John Cundy, Charity Warne. By (-)

So there is actually not much JOHNS action at South Hill at all.

I will have a bit of a hunt and see if I might find baptisms for William and Grace and see if we might get any more clues.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

It just may be that I am on to something here!

When looking back over the JOHNS information we have discussed so far, and having struck that brick wall with old William, I noticed that one of the witnesses to the marriage of Joseph and Mary Ann in 1860 was one Caleb JOHNS.

A search of the 1861 Census produced one Caleb JOHNS, age 48, mason, living at Castock with his wife Mary Ann and several children.

So I did a bit of work on Caleb and discovered that his father was STEPHEN.

In fact his parents were those you mentioned in your earlier note - Stephen JOHNS and Betty Keen BATE!

Another look at information produced something more of interest.

The witnesses to the marriage of William JOHNS and Elizabeth OSBORN were Thomas Osburn and STEPHEN JOHNS!! ;D

The 1841 Census shows Stephen and Betty (with son Caleb) as the only Stephen JOHNS at Calstock.

There are, however, three of that name in the neighbouring Parish of St Ive - age 4, 14 and 46 - and that is interesting.

Bearing in mind that the Stephen at Calstock was the Parish Clerk it may merely have been in that capacity that he was a witness to the marriage.

On the other hand however there could be just a little more to it and that is what I am going to try to investigate.

And it may be more than coincidence that Stephen's son Caleb was a witness to the marriage of William's son Joseph!

Before closing this note I should say that I am now amost 100% convinced that William's parents were William and Grace (nee SOWDEN).

Checking baptisms for the children of William and Elizabeth and I found these two of interest:-

Thomas SOWDEN Johns bp. 20th November 1836 Calstock

Nathaniel OSBORNE Johns bp. 9th January 1842 Calstock

Let's see if I can find the missing link.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

I am really struggling to find any more information on the family beyond wha we have and it may be that there are a number of Parish Registers not yet transcribed (even by LDS) or it is possible that there are non-comformist registers from the latter half of the 1700's that may contain information.

It may even be that there are some PRs that are lost.

But there is an interesting statistic from the 1851 Census.

A search for JOHNS born at Calstock shows that all except one were still living in that Parish.

The exception is 27-year-old John who is living at Tavistock with his wife and family and I believe he was the son of William and Elizabeth who was born at Calstock in 1823.

A reverse search to look for JOHNS living at Calstock shows 12 of the name who were not born in the Parish.

Of these we have William born at South Hill and Mary Ann, wife of Caleb, who was born at Marystow in Devon.

There is a family of Samuel JOHNS who were born in Devon, a servant girl from Devon, a lodger from Redruth, a Bennett and his wife Sarah from Launcells and Callington and one other whose birthplace is not known.

Interesting although still only a statistic.

But I can tell you a little more about Grace SOWDEN.

Grace d/o Thomas and Jane SOWDEN was baptised at St Cleer (two Parishes to the West of South Hill) 9th May 1770.

Thomas SOWDEN of St Cleer married Jane MUTTON 26th May 1761 at Menheniot (Banns published at St Cleer)

This information is from the transcript of the St Cleer PRs and the marriage from Phillimore.

That's the best I can do right now but I will think some more on it and see if I can come up with any other avenues to search.

I also checked the CRO Online Catalogue but there appear to be no Wills recorded for any of the family at Calstock.

That does not mean that there may not be Wills for these people in other Parishes.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Time for a brief look at the OSBORN side of this problem before I move on to something else for a while.

And it looks like it might be no easier than the JOHNS side!

I can find no baptism for an Elizabeth OSBORN in Cornwall or Devon that is a close enough match to be that of the wife of William JOHNS.

But there may be some clues that we can use.

And I have to start with the name of Nathaniel Osborn JOHNS which would seem to me to have some significance.

Have had a bit of a check and it seems the only Nathaniel OSBORN baptised in Cornwall was in 1822 at Calstock son of Thomas and Jane.

And that is probably the same Thomas and Jane OSBORN living just near William and Elizabeth JOHNS in 1851.

Hmmm - Nathaniel seems to just up and disappear.

But judging by their age in the 1841 and 1851 Census it would seem perhaps unlikely that Thomas and Jane were the parents of Elizabeth.
Not impossible but Jane would have been about 16 when Elizabeth was born.

And then come the recurring problems - cannot find a baptism for William OSBORN who, according to the 1841 Census, would have been born about 1811.

And so far cannot find a marriage for Thomas and Jane.

In 1851 Thomas says he was born at St Dennis which is right in the middle of Cornwall near Roche, St Columb Major and St Stephen in Brannel.

Jane's birthplace is recorded as Calstock so I have to wonder just where they did marry?

IGI does not have it and nor does the OPC site.

My brain is going into meltdown I think so perhaps I will leave this until tomorrow and have another go at it.

CT

[judylynn]

Wow oh wow -- lots of material in your last seven replies, CT!

First, smartypants, as for the 1871 ... I did say I couldn't find any of my notes -- not that I never located the record itself! (I check into this board mostly while I'm still at the office, and don't drag allll of my genealogy along every day!)

I have names and dates for all kids and most grandkids of Billy & Betsy JOHNS (among them the couple you saw next door in the census). I've connected most of the clan in Calstock, but some need a bit more research to sort -- there being (for example) at least three Williams born around 1834, some with multiple wives who may or may not be identified with a surname


BTW, I have William & Jane's children baptized in Gunnislake -- not Gwennap as you proposed. You say this William next door is listed as blind in 1881? (LDS doesn't show that detail, as you know). Very intriguing, since Billy & Betsy's son Richard was also blind by the time he was 30. Mine accidents? Or a hereditary trait, due to something like diabetes (which runs rampant in my family)?

Thanks so much for all those South Hill Parish Register Transcripts! One question comes to mind immediately: Where were all the JOHNS families between 1747-1781? (Except for Richard William Cocks and Susanna Raby -- you did mean that they have the JOHNS surname, right?) We see baptisms and marriages prior to and following that time period. But that's enough time for a whole generation to have been born, married, and have kids. Is there a likely parish they would have transferred to? Or are the South Hill records merely not available online?

From your lists, one could hypothesize that my William (husband of Grace -- I'm calling him Will after a TV show here ) was the one b. 1740 to William & Joan ... but that would make Wm. Sr. 53 at the time of his 1793 marriage. Can't rule it out, of course; wife Joan could've been much younger and been of conceivable age to bear those kids. But it does raise the question. Besides, there's no baptism for John, husband of Ann, either!

As for Caleb, son of Stephen -- yes, I have all the data you stated; and all contributed to my aforementioned wondering if there's a connection between their family and mine. And, as you say, knowing a JOHNS was the parish clerk made me hesitate in jumping to conclusions.

I too noticed the born-out-of-parish JOHNS folks in Calstock in 1851, and that several were from Devon. Being flummoxed with all the dead ends, I gave up on my Cornish side altogether and had sunk my teeth into my Irish branches for the past two years.

Again, CT, I've done a bunch of footwork already and can give you particulars once I finish preparing your PA research for my big vacation day at the courthouse after Easter! THEN I can take the time to organize my own line for queries here

I was saving the OSBORNEs for a separate query, but ... yes, though I can't find a baptism, all evidence points to Betsy being the daughter of Thomas OSBORNE & Jane "Jenny" (ROWE). They were married in 1798 in Calstock; groom was from St. Dennis parish, bride was a sojourner from Tavistock. They had 12 children I know of. I'm leaning toward Jenny's parents being William & Jane.

Oh, you're obviously right about the names of Thomas Sowden JOHNS and brother Nathaniel providing connections! Forgot to add yesterday that this too made me think it odd for Thomas to carry the middle initial "O" in the census. (Unless it was a misreading of an S?) And Nathaniel didn't merely disappear; he died -- at age 18 in 1860. The William OSBORNE in the 1841 census was Thomas & Jenny's son, who was bapt. in Calstock 1805; married secondly Susan (SMALE) in 1842; first wife d. by 1834.

Thanks for your findings!
~JudyLynn

[Cornish Terrier]

I did say I couldn't find any of my notes

I did pick up on that phrase! But for the sake of continuity and to keep my own mind focussed I kept going anyway.

www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,52054.0.html

If you go to this link you will find all sorts of stuff available - including transcripts of South Hill PRs.

In fact that site is where I got a lot of my PR information.

You will also find some photographs and other information about the Parish so it should prove interesting for you.

And that leads me to your question - and I am unable, so far, to find anything to suggest where this family might have been.

The BMD information I posted was ALL I could find at South Hill and there appear to be no gaps in the PRs.

If you look around the South Hill pages you will see in the introduction some details about the PRs and their transcriptions.
You will also find the Heart Tax Lists, Protestation Returns, Military Surveys and other information.

have names and dates for all kids and most grandkids of Billy & Betsy JOHNS (among them the couple you saw next door in the census). I've connected most of the clan in Calstock, but some need a bit more research to sort -- there being (for example) at least three Williams born around 1834, some with multiple wives who may or may not be identified with a surname

This stuff might prove useful and I can at least compare with what I have found.
I might also be able to track down the maiden names of some of those wives you are missing.

I have William & Jane's children baptized in Gunnislake

Okay - the place of birth in that Census is really difficult and I even tried working it out by comparison births with FreeBMD but I think I was probably confusing myslf in the end.

Is there a likely parish they would have transferred to? Or are the South Hill records merely not available online?

I think I have covered this question but I am at a loss right now to work out where they might have been.

I did mention a Stephen JOHNS at St Ive in the Census so that is a possibility and I just realised that I also have transcripts of some of those PRs so wil take a look at them.

I am not sure what coverage there is of St Ive in IGI and that may provide the key.

Up until now we have probably been relying on IGI initially and then availability of PRs so we may have to check around and see just what Parishes there are in the area for which there is currently little or no coverage.

- Taking a look at the earliest available Baptism PR for St Ive and it appears (as per transcriber notes) to have been in a much less than ordinary state of repair.

Hence the transcription is fragmented and many items missing or'best guess' as a result.

1778-1812 seems to have been in fairly good order but there are very few of the JOHNS family there. Seems to be just two families but not the ones we are after.

Calstock itself is the main place we might expect to find them but all I can find online is the OPC information and I am not sure just how much of the Parish is covered right now.

Your comment about the gaps echo my own thoughts but having the burial information indicates there is definitely a generation missing.

I have noted the remainder of your comments and will check the data and add to my database.

Having another look at Calstock - the OPC shows a JOHNS baptism in 1763 and then it jumps to 1799.

From memory I read that IGI has Parish coverage up until 1772. (Again this is just short of what we are looking for! )

I have just found my way to the site that has much of the Calstock stuff transcribed and there is nothing that I have not already found.

So it looks like we will just have to keep searching and hope thata clue finds its way to us very soon.

CT

If I think of or come up with anything else I will be sure to let you know.