Furze

[Deleted]

Remember, all I have is my Father's word for him quoting his Mother, in saying the Furze's came from "Up Country", which he felt meant Devon. If you check a map of Cornwall, Ludguan is North of St. Buryan (about 6-8 miles as the cough fly's :-)) In the 18th century that could have been "Up Country". Since Grandma and her ancestors came from St. Just - Ludguan is North East and a good carriage ride.
Also, I have an Aunt Rebecca and their are no Rebecca's on Grandma Angwins side. Then again there are no Ann's in the family ---

[Cornish Terrier]

I note one particular interesting comment from the last couple of posts:-

Remember, all I have is my Father's word for him quoting his Mother, in saying the Furze's came from "Up Country",

Without knowing ages let's say that this comment comes from no earlier than 1900.

When we talk about the possible ancestry of John Furze we are looking back beyond 1800.

There is a minimum 100-year gap involved here!

And we are probably looking at four (possibly five) generations between this John and the grandmother of Cousin Jack.

I think that leaves a little room to wonder about the result of the old 'pass then message down the line' game.

You know the one - I give you a piece of information which you then pass on to the next person in the line. This person passes it on to the next and so on until you get to the end of that line.

Go down to the other end and ask the last person to repeat your information and you will invariably find it is quite different to what you originally said!

And now something else that I think needs mentioning again:-

From what I have been able to discover John died in 1820 at the age of 54.

A John Furze was baptised at Ludgvan in 1766 son of William and Ann Furze.

This particular family group is the only one to have appeared at Ludgvan.

And this particular family baptised their last child at St Buryan.

The earliest Furze I have found in that area (i.e. St Buryan) was Peter Furze who married at St Buryan in 1711 to Amy Clement.

(Amy was the name of the first child of William and Ann Furze at Ludgvan.)

The only Furze families at St Buryan and Sancreed appear to be all descendants of Peter and Amy.

Your Furze family at St Buryan and Sancreed was the only family of that name in the area.

William and Ann Furze had some children baptised at Ludgvan before heading down (back?) to St Buryan where there last was baptised.

The youngest son was John who was baptised at Ludgvan in 1766.

Your John was buried at Paul in 1820 at the age of 54.

Going on memory for the moment - but as I recall it is only descendants of Peter and Amy (and then William and Ann) with the Furze name who can be found that far west.

Although he did not name a son Peter, William Furze did name his first child Amy.
No baptism has been found for William as yet but I think this is a decent pointer to his origins.

If we go back one step further (keeping 'up country' in mind) then Peter Furze was 'of Breage' when he married.

Another consideration, based on books I have read over the years, is that the Cornish dialect changed and became less broad the further East you went.

To anyone from (e.g.) St Just a person from Ludgvan was very likely a 'furrener' (foreigner) so it is quite easy to imagine that if you go much further they are going to be from 'up country'.

An old genealogical friend of mine used to often remind me of one important point:-

Don't invent people and imagine they must have existed!

In this case we have reasonably clear evidence of the link from St Buryan to Ludgvan and back.

Even though we have no baptism for William as yet we do have reasonable circumstantial evidence that he was the son of Peter and Amy.

So just because someone more than a hundred years later said that the family came from 'up country' there is no reason to think that meant Devon and therefore no reason to think that your John 'must' be from one of those families.

It would probably be best for you to take a look at the 'possible' families you have mentioned and follow the lines for a generation or two just to see what happened to each of the children.

Given the availability of information you should be able to eliminate most, if not all, of them.

I have other work to do but will take a look at the Rebecca problem a little later on.

CT

[Deleted]

Lesson learned .. stories passed down can loose some meaning over the decades. No wonder the poor Celts don't exist anymore! I also think Peter and Amy started this mess abt. 1711. I have things from John and Constance pretty much etched in stone - I am searching for evidence on William Furze (son of Peter and Amy) and Ann Jennings. I can only find their marriage in Ludguan in 1759.

[Cornish Terrier]

G'day Cousin Jack - I hope I did not come across harshly with that post

But after reading through a few of the previous posts that particular comment made me sit up and take notice.

It was then that I realised the gap we were presented with between possible fact and (if I can use the term) known heresay.

So there is no 'big stick' involved or any 'teaching a lesson' here but merely points of evidential interest to consider.

The next 'issue' for me to look at is your reference to the name of Rebecca and its use through the family.

I need to take a more thorough look at this but I think the first of that name that I currently show in the family was the daughter of Uter and Mary in 1837.

If so then the name may have originated in the Tonkin family or, possibly, from the Williams.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Using IGI a look at the name Rebecca in the Furze family is interesting.

Using the category 'All' there are 27 entries for the name with, of course, the usual IGI duplicates from 'submitted' entries.

Of these there are only 18 entries for Christening or 'birth' with the last occurrence being being at Sancreed in 1837. (That is discounting the 'born about 1880 St Just)

The two earliest entries are:-

1. REBECKAH FURSE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 13 SEP 1668 Talland, Cornwall, England

23. REBECCA FURRS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 02 JAN 1669 Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London, England

From here we jump a few years to the first in Devon:-

12. REBECCA FURSE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 30 DEC 1679 Paignton, Devon, England

After the 1668 event at Talland the next entry for a Christening in Cornwall is:-

4. REBECCA FURZE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 12 OCT 1806 Lostwithiel, Cornwall, England

Bearing in mind that IGI becomes much more limited in most areas after 1812 the only other baptism for a Rebecca Furze in Cornwall is at Sancreed in 1837.

If we narrow things to Christenings only we have only three records in IGI for Cornwall - 1668, 1806 and 1837.

(I have included only 'legitimate' events here which should be found in the PRs).

In Devon we have only seven 'legitimate' Christenings from 1679 through until 1807!

And in that group we have gaps between 1705 and 1774 and then 1777 and 1807.

Based on that I think it may be safe to say that Rebecca was not a name in continued use in any one branch of the family at any time prior to 1837.

The one oddity that I appear to have is the identity of this one at Paul:-

14 Dec 1816 by Banns
William Davey
Rebecca Furze [Mark]
Witnesses: James Strick, Richard Pentreath

A little more investigation on this one and I will post some results as soon as I have them.

Hope this helps sort things out a little.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Some further information on William Davey and Rebecca Furze.

This is a little sparse as I got called out yet again to another fire halfway through my search!

However - at least some of this family came out to Australia.

I think I have found a death record for Rebecca in 1851 at Mornington, Victoria.

She was then age 58 but no parents names were listed.

I also found a possible death for William Davey but would need to check the records again.

Son James died at Frankston, Victoria in 1884 age 64.

So we are looking for a birth for Rebecca probably around 1793 and almost certainly around Paul.

Will try to get more information in the coming days but ......

CT

[white]

There was a marriage for Peter Furze and Martha Thomas
26 jan 1784 at Madron , by licence.

[Deleted]

Thanks, my Rebecca was born in 1837 to Uter and Mary Furze, she married Thomas Bennetts in 1856. the earlier ones (from Cornwall) around 1760-90 may be related to William or Peter Furze.
The Peter & Martha of 1784 could be Peter 1711's son but that is dubious as it would make 1711 Peter 54 or so when they were married, and weren't the first born sons usually named for their father or grandfather?
I think I will concentrate on William b. 1735; m Ann Jennings in 1759 - it isn't so confussing just perplexing

[zoxx]

Hi All

I have been reading the Furze thread with great interest, I too am descended from the same Furze family of St Just / St Buryan / St Levan / and possibly Ludgvan.

I was just wondering if any further info had come to light since this thread started as I have been researching this family too, largely with the same results as detailed here.

My great grandmother was Annie Furze, b 1885 Rothwell, Leeds, and her ancestry was:

John Furze b 1869 St Just & Clara Taylor b 1868 Leeds
John Furze b 1843 St Just & Harriet Oliver b 1844 Sancreed / Drift
Matthew Furze b 1814 St Levan & Ann Carne of Paul
John Furze b c. 1866 in ? & Constance Williams of St Buryan

Chris

[Cornish Terrier]

Welcome to the site Chris.

It is my opinion that your John Furse was baptised at Ludgvan 16th May 1766 (privately) son of William Furse and Ann (nee Jennings)

The first child of William and Ann was given the name Amy which I think is suggestive of the possibility that this was the name of William's mother.
Based on that I believe it likely that William was the son of Peter Furze and Amy Clement who were married at St Buryan 17th November 1711.

Peter and Amy baptised three children at St Buryan - Peter 1713, Ann 1715 and John 1717.

I have now found evidence to support my opinions on the possibility of William also being a child of this marriage.

I have just received details of the following entry in the Germoe PRs (courtesy of the Germoe OPC):-

Bapised in ye year of our Lord god 1718
Wm. ye son of petter furce & Ammey his wife was Baptd. febry ye 7th

(Remember that this is Old Style so in today's terms it would be 1718/9)

We now know for certain that Peter and Amy had a son William and William's daughter Amy provides the logical link.
It also shows that Peter was not 'confined' to St Buryan which further strengthens the links with Ludgvan.

It is also worth remembering that Peter Furse was 'of Breage' when he married.

CT

[tonymitch]

Hi Chris, nice to have another Furze descendant contributing. ;D

Unfortunately my computer went, to use the repairman's technical language, "tits up" about a week ago and although I now am back on line and can contribute, my database is still inaccessible.

As soon as I can access it I'll provide more information to this thread and continue to confuse everyone.

Tony M

[tonymitch]

OK...done it....I'm up and limping along, not quite running as yet.

I'm a descendant of John and Constance Williams too through their son Uter (1806) brother to Matthew (1814).

I have John and Constance marrying in St Buryan on 9 May 1789 and Matthew marrying Anne Angwin formerly Carne on 27 Dec 1837.

I have a fair amount of info on the descendants of Uter (1814) but absolutely no info on your line, and then again, I don't go any further back than William and Ann Jennings.

I have a note to say from Free BMD that Constance (nee Williams) died in 1849 however, I can find no other record of her death, but........There is however a record of the burial of a Constance FERGUSON of Church Town St Just aged 84 on 5 Dec 1849. I take it that this is our Constance.

Tony M

[tonymitch]

As I said....I'll continue to confuse everyone.

I have indeed found William, Peter (1713), Ann (1715) and John (1717) and also Peter and Amy.....They were on my database all the time.....I have a note saying that Peter died in 1748 and was buried in Sancreed. This info came from West Penwith resources and there is no record on the OPC site.

I have no baptism date for William but a marriage dated 1759.

It also possible that he was married 2x, first time to an Elizabeth and fathered Peter and Elizabeth in 1753 and 1756. I can however find no record of thei marriage....just two children!

Also CT...I cannot find any reference on the OPC site to the baptism of William in Germoe

[Cornish Terrier]

Tony - you must remember that the OPC site is an ongoing project so not everything is transcribed as yet.

The baptism of William Furce at Germoe in 1718 is actually in the OPC database BUT it was transcribed by the original OPC as PEIRCE.

I have had the name confirmed as FURCE by the current OPC and have now sent off an Error Report to have the entry amended in the OPC database.

Sancreed Burials for that early period have not bee transcribed for the OPC yet but the WPR transcription I would consider to be reliable.

William Furze, sojourner, married Ann Jennings of Ludgvan by Banns 1st December 1759 at Ludgvan
Witnesses were Fras. Jennings and Sam. Warren

I will investigate the possibility of an earlier marriage for William as it certainly makes sense that he might name a son Peter.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Tony - I agre that William Furze was married twice.
Unfortunately his first marriage probably occurred at St Buryan sometime before 1753 which is the end of that period from 1738 when the marriage register is missing.

Son Peter bp. 1753 I would suggest is the man who married Martha Thomas at Madron in 1784 so that would tie up another loose end.

But I cannot find the Elizabeth you referred to.

However there is a Burial at St Buryan in 1756 and perhaps this is what you were thinking of.

Elizabeth Furse buried 15th June 1756 St Buryan

I would suggest this is William's first wife.

CT