Another Trewhela Mystery Solved

[Cornish Terrier]

Just for something a little different I have just solved another TREWHELA family mystery that has been annoying me for nearly 30 years!

William LIDSTONE married Martha TREWHELLA 24th July 1831 Stoke Damerel, Devon

I had never had any real idea of who this might have been until last night when, for a break from another query, I decided to 'have a look around' at a few different things.

On the 'very off chance' I decided to have a look at the 1851 Census to see if I might find her still alive and get some sort of clue.

1851 Census -
No 3 Station, Lydd, Kent
William LIDSTONE, head, mar, 40, Chief Officer, Coast Guard, Devonport, Devon
Martha do.,wife, mar, 46, CROWAN, Cornwall
Catherine do., wid., wid., 77, Weybridge, Cornwall

My first clue - she was apparently born at CROWAN.

But then the problem,

Only two possible persons this could have been.

Martha TREWHELA born 29th September 1799 Crowan d/o Thomas and Elizabeth (nee HANCOCK)

Marth TREWHELA born 27th November 1809 Crowan d/o John and Mary (nee HOLMAN)

From her age at the Census it would appear unlikely that she was either of these given one was born 5 years to early and the other 4 years too late.

BUT - Martha wass not a common name in any parts of the family and these were the ONLY two possibilities.

AND - the second of these girls I show as having married Robert RICHARDS at Crowan in 1838 and having two children - one born 1841 and the second in 1849.

Most unlikely that this could have been the elder Martha given her age so it would appear that her age was understated in the Census.

Having found Martha in 1851 I thought to have a look at further Census records.

1841 Census
Spring Gardens, Wyke Regis, Dorset
Willm LIDSTONE, 30, Navy, not in County
Martha do., 35, not in County
James THOMAS, 20, not in County

1861 Census
Stoke Damerel, Devon
William LIDSTONE, head, mar, 51, Stoke Damerel
Martha do., wife, mar, 57, Crowan

Her age is now pointing more to a birth around 1804 and certainly eliminating further the second Martha.

1871 Census
34 Admiralty St, East Stonehouse
William H THUELL, head, mar, 35, carpenter, Stonehouse, Devon
Elizabeth M do., wife, mar, 35, Devonport, Devon
Frederick W do., son, 11, scholar, Stonehouse, Devon
George R do., son, 9, scholar, Stonehouse, Devon
Bessie L do., daur, 7, scholar, Stonehouse, Devon
Martha LIDSTONE, lodger, widow, 64, Crowman, Cornwall

1881 Census
35 Admiralty Street Public House No Sign
East Stonehouse, Devon
William Henry THUELL, head, mar, 44, builder, Stonehouse, Devon
Martha E do., wife, mar, 44, Devonport, Devon
Fred W do., son, son, 20, apprentice (carpenter), Stonehouse, Devon
George R do., son, 19, apprentice (paiinter), Stonehouse, Devon
Bessie do., daur, 17, apprentice (draper), Stonehouse, Devon
Martha LIDSTONE, servant, wid, 74, Pehell, Cornwall

1891 Census
(street ) East Stonehouse, Devon
William H THUELL, head, mar, 54, retired builder, East Stonehouse, Devon
Elizabeth M do., wife, mar, 55, Devonport, Devon
William G PRIDIE, son-in-law, mar, 33, school master, Shorecliffe, Kent
Bessie L do., daur, mar, 27, no occupation, East Stonehouse, Devon
William G do., son, 1, East Stonehouse, Devon
Martha LIDSTONE, boarder, widow, 93, living on own means, N.K.

So - right through to 1881 Martha's age is fairly consistent with a birth about 1806.

But then in 1891 she suddenly ages by about 8 years.

(I think that is called "The Years Catching Up With You" ;D)

And then from FreeBMD Death:-

1892 E.Stonehouse R.D. March Qtr Vol 5b Page 2_8
Martha LIDSTONE - age 93

Finally I know that this was indeed the daughter of William TREWHELA and Elizabeth (nee HANCOCK)

Born Crowan 29th September 1799
Christened Crowan 2nd February 1800

Thomas TREWHELA was bp. 5th June 1763 at Crowan s/o Thomas TREWHELA and Martha (nee BLEWETT)

He married Elizabeth HANCOCK 31st Januar 1785 at Crowan.

Amongst Martha's siblings was brother Richard TREWHELA who married Mary RICHARDS at Crowan 23rd November 1811.

The youngest son of Richard and Martha was Thomas TREWHELA.

This Thomas was the man who married Lucinda O'SULLIVAN in Killaconenagh, Cork, Ireland in 1845 and who sailed for CHILE sometime around 1853.

There are, today, many descendants of this family still in Chile and I have met a number of them during my 1994 visit.

Just a couple of things to do on this one now.

Find a little more about William LIDSTONE.
And find out how theTHUELL family might be connected. (I suspect that Elizabeth may have been Martha's daughter.)

Should I find the answer I will add another post to this so that it is on record for Ann TUMSER and other people with connections or interests in this particular TREWHELA family.

[Cornish Terrier]

I am unable to find anything further on William LIDSTONE except that he did in 1869 at the age of 60.

I cannot find a baptism for him anywhere in IGI.

The connection between Martha and the THUELL family is far from clear.

From FreeBMD:-

1859 Stoke D. R.D. March Qtr Vol 5b Page 546

William Henry THUELL
Eizabeth Martha ROBINS

Yet Martha LIDSTONE was with this family for more than 20 years.

Parents of William Henry THUELL:-

Henry THUELL m. Marianna VENNING 26th February 1833 Stoke Damerel

Elizabeth ROBINS may be the following:-

1851 Census
Princess St, Stoke Damerel
John ROBINS, head, mar, 49, joiner in dockyard, Plymouth
Elizth do., wife, mar, 49, Polperro, Cornwall
Amelia do., 23, dressmaker, Morice-Town, Devonport
Eliza do., 21, upholstress, Morice-Town, Devonport
George do., 17, draughtsman's apprentice, Morice-Town, Devonport
Elizth do. (junr), 15, seamstress, Morice-Town, Devonport

I can find nothing to give me any clue as to why Martha LIDSTONE might remain with the THUELL family for so long - yet it seems there 'should' be some sort of family connection.

CT
John do. (junr), 12, oakum boy in dockyard, Morice-Town, Devonport

[donne]

This is rather an old thread now which I came across when revisiting my LIDSTONE line originating from Stokenham and Chivelstone in Devon. It seems to me there could be another Cornish connection here in that I believe William LIDSTONE's mother could be Catherine PEARSE from Madron.

The 1851 census entry for William and Martha LIDSTONE:
Address No 3 Station
Parish Lydd
Registration District Romney Marsh

Forename Surname Age Year Born Relation Birth Place Occupation
William Lidstone 40 1811 Head Devonport, Devon Chief Officer Coast Guard
Martha Lidstone 46 1805 Wife Crowan, Cornwall Chief Officer Coast Guard
Catherine Lidstone 77 1774 Wido Wendron?, Cornwall Visitor

My assumption is that Catherine LIDSTONE is William's mother, living with him after the death of his father who would appear to be another William LIDSTONE. Although the census transcription has Catherine's birthplace as Wendron, I have difficulty in reading the original image and I wonder if if could actually be Madron (see below).

Prior to 1851, Catherine LIDSTONE appears in the 1841 census as follows:

Surname Forenames Sex Age Occupation Birth County
LIDSTONE William M 65 Superannuated Shipwright DEV
LIDSTONE Catherine F 60 OUC
REMMINGTON Kate F 15 DEV
STACEY Betsey F 15 Fs OUC
FOURACRE Sarah F 20 Fs DEV

I suspect that William and Catherine married in Portsmouth, Hampshire for there is a marriage recorded there for a William LIDSTONE and Catherine PEARCE 3 7uly 1796 as well as two subsequent birth, Mary 11 July 1797 and Jemima 16 Apr 1801. Why Portsmouth? - well, if William was a shipwright there could well have been some mobility of labour between the naval dockyards of Portsmouth and Devonport.

As for Catherine PEARCE, there are no PEARCEs in Wendron which I could find but there are a couple of Catherines baptised in Madron in 1780, Catherine, dau. of James 1 Oct 1780 and Catherine PEARCE als NOALL dau. of Sampson, 27 Feb 1780 who might just about fit the bill.

[Cornish Terrier]

Hi Roger - this is most interesting and now provides opportunity to fill in another gap or two!

Right - first thing is the problem with the 1851 Census - SOLVED! The birthplace of Catherine Lidstone (as it appears in the Census record) is WEYBRIDGE which, of course, is Wadebridge up on the Camel Estuary between St Breock and Egloshayle. And that then means that if Catherine was a Catherine 'Pearce' as you suggest then she will be the following:-

Catherine daughter of Francis and Catherine Pearce baptised 30th October 1774 at St Breock

The coverage of St Breock is limited on the OPC database with only three baptisms recorded for Francis and Catherine. However I do have a copy of the CFHS Baptism Transcript which shows a total of 9 baptisms for this family (2 as PEARCE and 7 as PEARSE).

The marriage of the parents (from Phillimore) - Francis Pearse and Catherine Julyans married 12th January 1765 at St Breock.

I can also confirm that William Lidstone died 25th May 1769 and was buried 29th May 1769 at Stoke Damerel - 'William Lidstone of 5 Warren St South age 60' - the same address where he and Martha can be found in the 1861 Census. (Martha died in 1892 but I can find no record of her burial in the FS records.)

A PROBLEM - a check of St Breock marriages shows there are two Catherine Pearce/Pearse marriages in that Parish alone that could potentially involve the Catherine above - one in 1790 to Thomas Hawken and one in 1798 to William Barry. In the first Catherine would have been about 16 and the other about 24 so both could be her but the other problem here is that there are only three Catherine Pearce/Pearse baptisms at St Breock during the relevant time-period and two of those (1772 and 1774) were children of Francis and Catherine!

But the other thing I have found in the Devon records on FS is a marriage at Ugborough 8th April 1803 for a William Lidstone and Catherine Chapple. It may well be a completely separate family but at least for the moment it serves to add to the confusion.

I will check further and see if I can find anything else that might point us in the right direction.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

I think I might be able to rule out any connection to the 1803 William Lidstone/Catherine Chapple marriage although the mind needs to remain slightly open for a little while anyway.

This William and Catherine baptised at least three children at Ugborough - Thomas 1804, William 1805 and Robert 1807. And it looks like son William (1805) may have married Agnes Moss at Holbeton in 1830 and then died at Holbeton in 1855. I was a little concerned because in the 1851 Census this William states he was born at Holbeton but a check of the maps shows that there is only 10kms or 6 miles between the two places.
This same William and Catherine also had a son John baptised at Ugborough 27th May 1810 (born 12th May 1810) which would seem to confirm this is a different family. Although there is still a tiny window of doubt given that 'our' William was born 28th February 1809 and baptised 15th April 1810. Birthdates are no problem but the fact the baptisms were only a month apart with one at Stoke Damerel and the other at Ugborough. It is the distance between the two places that makes the difference.

I also found an Ancestry tree for William Lidstone/Catherine Chapple but it tends to add a little confusion given the suggestion this family also ended up around Plymouth! Nevertheless, I think there is enough to suggest there are two different families involved which brings me back to the problem of locating a marriage for 'our' William Lindstone senior!!!

More as I find it.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Still no marriage but I have found death/burial records for William and Catherine Lidstone.

William Lidstone of 59 George Street Devonport was buried 21st July 1841 presumably at the Ebenezer/Central Hall Methodist Graveyard in Plymouth. (Record taken from the Ebenezer/Central Hall Methodist register 1837-1909). As per my previous message the family was living at George Street in 1841.

Catherine Lidstone died at Lydd, Kent in 1851 and again very shortly after the 1851 Census was taken. Catherine was age 77 and in 1851 was at No 3 Station (presumably Coast Guard) Lydd with son William and his wife Martha.

Oh, yes - earlier on I also found another potential child for 'our' William and Catherine - John son of William and Catherine Lidstone baptised 10th August 1806 Stoke Damerel (born 8th March 1806)

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Still no marriage but I have found death/burial records for William and Catherine Lidstone.

Well ............... just how dumb am I??? Hunting around all over the place for a marriage without success and then I come back after mowing lawns, watching news etc. only to find that in Roger's first post today the potential marriage had already been displayed! And to make matters worse I now actually remember reading that particular piece of information!!!

Oh well.

So, now that I have 'found' that information again I have checked some Hampshire records on FS and found the following:-

Mary daughter of William and Cathe Lidstone baptised 16th January 1789 St Mary's Portsea <==== evidence of another earlier William and Catherine Lidstone perhaps?

Mary daughter of William and Catherine Lidstone baptised 16th January 1798 Saint John Portsea (born 11th July 1797) (already noted by Roger but does not appear in the FS Hampshire Parish Register collection)
Jemima daughter of William and Catherine Lidstone baptised 21st June 1801 St Mary's Portsea (already noted by Roger)
Jamima daughter of William and Catherine Lidstone baptised 21st June 1807 St Mary's Portsea

At this point I am inclined to agree that the marriage of William Lidstone to Catherine Pearce at Portsmouth in 1796 is probably that of the parents of Martha Trewhella's husband. We then have a potential list of children:-

Mary bp. 16th January 1798 St John Portsea
Jemima bp. 21st June 1801 St Mary's Portsea
John bp. 10th August 1806 Stoke Damerel
Jamima bp. 21st June 1807 St Mary's Portsea
William bp. 15th April 1810 Stoke Damerel

From William Lidstone's appearance in the Census and the details of his burial we know he was born about 1775 so I suspect he is this one:-

William son of William and Sarah Lidstone bp. 18th August 1775 Stoke Damerel

William and Sarah also had a daughter Jemima so there is a potential link but it does concern me a little that, at least so far, there is no daughter Sarah named for her grandmother. (Of course that is based on the usual naming conventions I am used to in Cornwall!)

The other thing here that I am a little sceptical about is the fact we have two baptisms for a daughter named Jemima, both at St Mary's Portsea and both on 21st June (1801 and 1807) yet I have not been able to find a burial. I am wondering if this might be something to do with transcribers being confused with what record they were transcribing? (Hampshire BTs have the 1801 event but not 1807!)

I am updating my database to reflect the 1775 baptism of William Lidstone, the 1796 marriage at Portsmouth and the above list of children. I will also add the baptism of Catherine Pearce from the St Breock registers.

And then it will be a matter of waiting for more Hampshire and Devon records to become available so original records can be checked to verify (or otherwise) everything!

CT

[donne]

Thanks, Ian, for your comments and analysis, as thorough and as helpful as usual. I have had another look at Catherine LIDSTONE's birthplace on the 1851 census image I have available, and while the associated transcription says Wendron, I think that what is actually written is 'Cornwall, Weybridge, which of course only makes sense when translated to Wadebridge as you suggest. You have also found a Catherine PEARCE/PEARSE baptism from the Wadebridge which provides a good fit to her stated census age.

I have been unable to find any PR images on line with which to check out the Portsmouth connection and there doesn't seem to be any online shipwright records at the TNA with which I could perhaps find out something about the career and postings of William LIDSTONE senior. I do live near to the Hampshire Record Office so perhaps a visit (flashback to the pre-internet way of doing family history!) would be in order after our current Covid lockdown ends.

I have tended to discount the Ugborough connection. This seems to be a farming family whereas these the families we are looking at seem to have a boatbuilding/ shipwright/ naval connections.

By the way, there is a minor slip of the finger in one of your postings, as follows:

I can also confirm that William Lidstone died 25th May 1769 1869 and was buried 29th May 1769 1869 at Stoke Damerel

[Cornish Terrier]

Weeeeelllll ........ it was only a little 100 year slip!

I have discounted the Ugborough family as well for reasons I think I outlined in an earlier post. But they do also appear to have migrated towards Plymouth.

If you do happen to wander in the direction of the Hampshire repositories I think one of the main things you should have a look at is the marriage record. It may tell us nothing other than names and dates but if there is any other sort of description of the parties involved (marital status, occupation origin etc.) it would be useful as would the names of the witnesses.

The only place I can think of (other than Ancestry and FS) which might have images of Hampshire records online would be Findmypast but I don't subscribe to them and always found it very painful trying to navigate around their records. I do occasionally, although very rarely, try to find odd items on FMP that I can't find elsewhere but that usually ends in frustration because I can't view what I find without paying! But if you know anyone who does subscribe to FMP then it might be worth asking if they could check some of these details for you.

CT