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Post by trencrom on Aug 15, 2007 3:16:05 GMT -5
This is a follow-on from the Chapple thread on the Madron board concerning the parentage of Phillis Ellis who married Thomas Semons in 1786 at Ludgvan.
Could she have been the same person as the Phillis, the daughter of Richard Ellis, who was christened at Sancreed on 24/8/1767.
I have not seen the original marriage entry for the 1786 wedding so I do not know whether it ocntains any clues as to the parentage of the bride or not.
However this Richard evidently married a Jane Rodda 2.4.1743 at Sancreed (per IGI) and had the following children: Jane, chr. 24/7/1743, Thomas, chr. 29/6/1745, Richard, chr. 13.12.1747, Grace, chr. 3/6/1750, Mary, chr. 12/4/1762, John, chr. 17/11/1765, Phyllis, as above.
(Cannot account for the apparent gap in children between 1750 and 1762!)
The IGI includes two patron entries giving Phillis and Thomas the following children: Phylis and Grace, said to have both been born at Madron "about' 1/1/1787.
'Phyllis Simmons, widow" then remarried to Peter Chapple on 7/1/1795 at St. Ives, and had the following children:
Phyllis, christened 22/4/1796 at St. Ives, bd 4/4/1802 at Madron, John, chr. 27/5/1798 at Madron, marr. Jane Thomas 27/4/1823 at Zennor, marr. Dinah Quick 14/7/1828 at Zennor, 8 children, Richard Ellis, chr. 29/12/1799 ditto, bd 25/4/1802, Phyllis, chr. 26/12/1802 ditto, bd 20/11/1803, James, chr. 2/12/1804 ditto, marr. Mary Woolcock 12/11/1827 at Gulval, 9 children, Elizabeth, chr. 30/11/1806 ditto, marr. John Curnow 14/5/1825 at Gulval, 3 children, died bef. Oct 1833, Phyllis Richards, chr. 3/12/1809 ditto, prob. marr. Thomas Semmens 8/3/1829 at Paul, 5 children.
The presence of a "Richard Ellis" amongst Peter and Phillis' children is a strong argument for her being the daughter of this above Richard Ellis. however, the presence of a "Phyllis Richards" amongst the same children is an equally strong argument for her being the daughter instead of Thomas Ellis of Ludgvan, who married a Phillis Richards in 1765 and who had a daughter, also named Phillis, there two years later.
Peter and Phyllis do not have a daughter named Jane, but by the same token they do not have a son named Thomas, either.
In short, the onomastic evidence thus far is conflicting as to which of these two Ellis families did the wife of Peter Chapple belong to. Part of the problem also is that the ancestry of Peter is unknown at present, so we cannot say which of the remaining names of his children may have come down from his side of the family.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 15, 2007 13:01:07 GMT -5
Will make this reply brief and try to elaborate later. According to Phillimore & Taylor the 1786 Marriage was at Madron (Thomas Semens & Phillis Ellis) As for the rest - I am going to have to take another long look at it before I comment. Tired, hungry and a few problems to sort out. Will try and look at this again after work tomorrow night ( working on my night off again :
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Post by trencrom on Aug 15, 2007 23:49:06 GMT -5
Yes it was Madron, not Ludgvan. I'd be interested to know who the witnesses were for this marriage.
I tried to find Ellis wills for Ludgvan years ago but the closest I found were Ellises in St Erth, who appear to be a separate family. Have not searched for Ellis wills in Sancreed in this time frame.
Thomas Ellis and Phyllis Richards of Ludgvan did have a son named Richard, christened in 1769. Therefore that could be the person that "Richard Ellis Chapple" was named after, which would tilt the balance of probabilities in favour of the Ludgvan family being Phillis' family.
BUT
By the same token though if Phyllis Ellis and Thomas Semons had a daughter named Grace, that could point to Phyllis being a daughter of Richard Ellis and Jane Rodda, as they also had a daughter with this name. Also, in the 1841 Census at Penzance* a Phillis Chapple, aged 75, is named after a John Bennatts (aged 55) and hs wife Grace (aged 50), although as I have seen only a CFHS printout I am unclear as to whether they were all living together or just next door to each other. * Piece 143/1 folio 25 page 6 This could be significant, as a John Bennatts married a Grace "Symons" in Gulval in 1821. However if the name "Grace" came from the Semons side, rather than the Ellis one, its appearance in the family of Richard and Jane might just be coincidence, and hence not an indication as to Phillis' parentage.
So the evidence is increasing--but arguably for both possibilities.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 16, 2007 9:59:50 GMT -5
Let me see what I can do to help here. Firstly, Phillimore does not list the witnesses to the marriage in question so I am a 'lame duck' on that one. However, the 1841 Census I can help with:- Market Jew Street, Penzance, Madron John Bennatts, 55, ag. lab. Grace Bennatt, 50 (30?) Phillis Chapple, 75 Eliza Semmens, 25, basket maker So they were all co-habitating. This now looks at least a little promising. Grace BENNATT is probably on of the two daughters of Thomas and Phillis Semens bp. in 1787. (Remembering that, in the 1841 Census, the age of adults (over 15) was rounded (normally) down to the nearest five years). Now - who was Eliza Semmens. Will post this now and look at more shortly given my Internet Connection has been dropping in and out.
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Post by trencrom on Aug 17, 2007 1:23:27 GMT -5
That's interesting.... suggests that we are looking at the same Phillis here.
Found John and Grace B in indexes for the 1851 (where their ages are given as 66 and 65 respectively) but no Phillis to be found. Either she was out of the parish, or deceased by that date.
I had a look around for a burial record post 1841 but have not found one thus far. There should also be a death cert since we are post-1837.
Does the '41 give marital status? I am just wondering if we can show either one way or the other if her husband was still living as of that date --because just because she was at Bennatts' house on census night does not mean that she was a widow unless the census record also states that.
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Post by cornishmaid on Aug 17, 2007 1:53:01 GMT -5
Hi there
May not be much help, but there is a Phillis Chapple's death registered for Jan/Feb/March quarter, 1843, Penzance District (Vol 9, Page 159).
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Post by trencrom on Aug 17, 2007 2:05:04 GMT -5
Looks like these two Ellis families (Thomas' and Richard's) are connected further back in any event. So regardless of which Phillis it is, she will be a descendant of Thomas Ellis and Mary Stephens.
(This is on the assumption that the Richard Ellis christened to the said Thomas and Mary in 1724 is the Richard Ellis who married Jane Rodda and who was the father of Phillis Ellis of Sancreed chr. 1767. Phillis Ellis of Ludgvan, also chr. 1767, was the daughter of Thomas Ellis by Phillis Richards, the daughter of Edward Richards of Buryan by Phillis Ellis (chr. 1714), older sister of the said Richard (i.e. the Richard chr. 1724).)
So the two possible candidates for Phillis the wife of firstly Thomas Semmons and secondly Peter Chapple appear to have been first cousins once removed to each other.
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Post by trencrom on Aug 17, 2007 2:09:54 GMT -5
Thanks very much cornish maid, that will be worth checking out!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Aug 23, 2007 11:25:38 GMT -5
Unfortunately the 1841 Census is of little help regarding relationships, condition or place of birth. I agree with Cornishmaid that the 1843 Death is likely that of your Phillis but it would, of course, need confirmation. Having been offline for just over a week due to technical problems I am trying to catch up on things. I find that I am now unable to access my usual source of Census and other interesting records and am trying to rectify that situation. Will try to take another look at this as soon as I can. (Hopefully I will have found my access back to the Census records by then also. )
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Post by trencrom on Sept 11, 2007 4:54:53 GMT -5
I can now confirm that it is my Phillis --she is described as the wife of Peter Chapple, farmer, aged 77 years. Died at Wicka in Zennor. Burial also recorded in Zennor registers.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 11, 2007 10:53:32 GMT -5
Thanks Trencrom - I will try and re-read this thread in the coming days and update my database accordingly. Trying to answer other queries and have work to do tomorrow and have also been trying to help train my new boss at the Pub.
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Post by trencrom on Sept 16, 2007 23:01:46 GMT -5
I read on the weekend that a younger Richard Ellis, grandson of the Richard who married Jane Rodda, was the son-in-law of John Uren who owned land at Tregavara in Madron in the early 1800s, according to the latter's will. A Peter Chapple was a tenant of lands owned by this man around 1810 according to parish chest documents (see Chapple thread on the Madron board for further details) As Peter the husband of Phillis was having children christened in Madron in the years immediately beforehand, this could well be the same Peter. Whether this males Phillis more likely to have been of the Sancreed Ellises I am unsure though.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Sept 17, 2007 14:12:53 GMT -5
I WILL try and look further into this as I would also like to have the problem sorted. I must also apologise for my note on the 'other' thread where I mentioned I did not have the information on the marriage to Jane RODDA. Checking through this Sancreed section I now find that I DID have the information after all. Perhaps I need to find time to sit back and carefully go through this information. As usual - will do my best.
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Post by londoner on Jan 17, 2008 11:15:40 GMT -5
I know this is not strictly relevant but where else to put it? one of the Bonds I have for my Humphrys family (appointing guardian for a minor) appears to have been used as a draft by someone to produce a later document. With Humphrys names crossed out and Ellis names written above. The bond of £1000 is on George Ellis (& John Saundry) of St Buryan in respect of his son James Tregear Ellis, being the principal legatee in the LW&t of John Ellis of St Levan, yeoman. it is dated 1842. By co-incidence (or not) John appears to have been the son of Thomas & Phillis Ellis of Trendrennan, St Levan Hopefully of some use to anyone interested in Ellises
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Feb 11, 2008 9:11:12 GMT -5
Now you have me confused. Who is the father of 'James Tregear Ellis' as recorded in this instance - was it George - or are we talking of another Ellis who was possible a brother to George. Further to the mix:- I am going to 'assume' that George Ellis was a bondsman for, possibly, his brother and that it was his brother who died about 1842. In this case I think the following scenario would be correct (even though I have not yet identified the parents of Thomas). Thomas ELLIS, husbandman, of St Levan m. 30th December 1785 St Just in Penwith Phyllis TREGEAR I have a list of 10 children and can supply further details as required. But the first child I have was recorded (or transcribed) as JAMMY TREGEAR ELLIS and baptised at St Levan 14th September 1786. The other child mentioned, JOHN, is probably the son baptised at St Levan 20th April 1794. John was child number 5 according to my records but there is one other of interest. Child number 7 was GEORGE who was baptised at St Levan 26th October 1798. Some further clarification would be good here and we might be getting closer to solving the problem. Ian
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