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Post by marktrengove on Apr 24, 2007 17:10:17 GMT -5
John Richard Trengove has a son, born at Illogan, called John. He may have been born around 1558, when there are gaps in the Illogan registers.
The accepted history appears to be that he moved to St Erth, where he has children James (b.1601), William (b.1604) and unknown daughter (b.1607). After that he died at St Erth.
However, IGI shows a John Trengove marrying ar Camborne on 16 June 1608 an Anne. Furthermore, the Camborne Register (online at OPC) has a John Trengove buried ther on 13 January 1631.
One John Trengove or two?!
Views warmly invited!
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Post by Zenobia on Apr 24, 2007 21:59:38 GMT -5
Hmmm.... Unfortunately, this one may come under the heading of "insuffiecient evidence" which sadly, is often the norm when you get this far back. If you believe John may have been born ca. 1558, the the man having children at St. Erth could almost fit another generation in. Unless of course, the St. Erth fellow had other children previously (perhaps unknown ones) and the three listed were the last of a large family. When did the St. Erth John die? As for the Camborne one, again, that is a very late marriage, even by early Cornwall standards, for someone b. ca. 1558. But, then, it could be a second marriage. Were there children of this marriage? What is your proof that John Richard Trengove left a son John? Is this one from a will? Incidentally, I presume that John Richard Trengove was the son of a Richard Trengove, since middle names were not in use that far back, and this would be a 'full patronymic' (I recall seeing an early 1600s bride in Camborne once, called "Catherine Tom Roberts").
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 25, 2007 12:25:28 GMT -5
A look at the Transcript of the St Erth Registers shows no evidence of a John Trengove have children baptised there between 1596 and 1615. There is a Thomas TRENGOWE with a number of children, however - yet a search back to 1581 shows no evidence of him either. Burials from 1565-1661 show only the following burials:- 13 Feb 1599 - Agnes d/o Thomas Trengowe 03 Jan 1602 - James s/o James Trengowe Now - you say 'accepted history' shows this link to St Erth! Would appreciate if you could expand on this given my poor findings. I must say that there are some sections of the St Erth Registers that have apparently been too difficult to decipher so it would be interesting to have sources for the children supposedly born there. Also found no baptisms at Camborne up until 1636. (Again Transcript which was apparently very difficult to read in the early days.) I did find the 1608 Marriage. Camborne Burials 1538-1655:- 11 Feb 1627 - Elizabeth Trengrove 13 Jan 1630 - John Trengove 12 May 1641 - Infans Johane Trengrove, Illegitimate Illogan Baptisms from 1559-1574:- 07 Jun 1562 - Sibble d/o John 19 Aug 1565 - Saundrye s/o John 12 Oct 1572 - Thomas s/o John Richard That is the limit of my currently availabe Illogan records. Best I can do just for now.
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Post by marktrengove on Apr 27, 2007 18:14:21 GMT -5
The normally followed tree can be found in a booklet by M L "Pete" Nance, online at freepagesgenealogy.rootsweb.com/~nancegc/cornwall.htm. This is a pretty thorough piece of research, but perhaps rather dated now. It is good on the Nance side of the family, but not so good on the Trengoves. John Richard Trengove was the son of Ralph Nance of Trengove-vyan, who was the son of Sir Alexander Nance, knighted by Henry Tudor in 1485 after the Battle of Bosworth. To complicate matters further on all these John Trengoves, the Breage Register (online via GENUKI) has a Margaret Trengoffe, widow of John Trengoffe, marrying a Ralph Pryge there in 1561.
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Post by Zenobia on Apr 27, 2007 20:24:08 GMT -5
I had a little trouble accessing the link, and had to get there a roundabout way. However, I did find the article, and to make things easier, here is the pertinant info from the booklet:
The revue of the St. Ives family gives us a clear cut picture that we can not claim descent from this family, which leaves us only two Nance males in all Cornwall who were living around 1575 who could possibly be the ancestor of Richard Nance, emigrant to Virginia. They be: John Nance, Esquire of Illogan, son of Henry Trengove, Esq., a son of Sir Alexander Nans; and John Richard Trengove of Trengove in Illogan, the son of Ralph Trengove alias Nans of Trengove, also a son of Sir Alexander Nans of Trengove in Illogan.
As mentioned above, there appears to be but two Nance males in Cornwall that are left after eliminating the St. Ives and the St. Clement families as potential ancestors of the american family. John Richard Trengove, of Trengove in Illogan, appears in the Church Registers of the Parish until 1588, after which we find no later mention of the name in Illogan whatsoever. He had a son James 1572, a son Richard born 1588, and also appears to have had sons Thomas and John Trengove, and two daughters. Had this family remained in Illogan for any length of time after 1588, we would find at least one or more marriages or deaths recorded among this family. Few church records can be found in St. Erth Parish before 1600. It is here we find several baptismal records of Trengove children beginning 1601 to 1607, and their fathers were John, Thomas, and James Trengove.
I would like to know what the source was of this John Richard Trengove being the son of Ralph, as middle names did not come into vogue until the mid 1700s at earliest. Any earlier instances than that should be a double patronymic, which would indicate that John was the son of a Richard Trengove. If he did indeed name sons James, Richard, John and Thomas; but no Ralph, this would seem to bear this out.
Was the Trengove booklet written close to the turn of the century by any chance? There was a trend then for wealthy people to hire genealogists to 'squeeze them into' a family connected with Royal lines; I've seen many many examples of this over the years.
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Post by Zenobia on Apr 27, 2007 20:59:09 GMT -5
Decided to take a look and see if there was a Visitation done for this family. There is, and it can be accessed at www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/Cornwall/visitations/index.htmlGo to page 485. This is the 1620 Visitation, signed by Henry Trengove (5th generation down). It shows that Alexander Trengove was credited with another son, called Ralph in the 1573 Visitation (footnote 2), but proven to be called Richard (footnote 3) by Feet of Fines dated 1554 and 1555, and who left daughters only. The fifth generation contains a John and a Richard, who were according to the footnotes listed in the 1573 Visistation, but must have died fairly young and without issue, since their brother Henry (b ca. 1556 - age 64 in 1620) does not bother to include them in his 1620 signed Visitation, although he includes two sisters (note all of the italic portion, which is of the signed original). So I don't think there is anywhere to comfortably place John Richard Trengove in this family. What is needed here is for John Trengove (m. Margery Arundell) to have had a brother (preferably named Richard) who begat John Richard Trengove, but since there is none listed in 1620, nor apparently none on the earlier 1573 visitation, it seems unlikely (although not impossible). Have you considered checking IPMs or feet of Fines?
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Post by marktrengove on Apr 28, 2007 7:34:25 GMT -5
Very interesting stuff. I suspect that the pedigree, however, is only confined to the titled part of the Nance/Trengove family. I have generally found the Nance booklet to be pretty good research, and it certainly does not have the appearance of an attempt to connect to Royal lines. It is more interested in Nances than Trengoves, however, and much weaker on the latter. The existence of a John Richard Trengove at Illogan is pretty certain. The Illogan Baptism Register gives only 'John' as the father of the children Sibble (1562), Saundrye (male 1565), but 'John Richard' as the son of Thomas (1572). The Burial Register has the following entry in 1587: "Richard, John of Trengove, 21 October". There is also a Richard Trengove, son of John, baptised there on 10 November 1588 - after the death of John Richard. While it is possible that this is John Richard's son, born shortly before his death, the other possibility is that this Richard is the son of a John, an early son of John Richard, baptised in the period when there is a gap in the Illogan Register (1548-58). This seems a more likely scenario, given the gap of 16 years between Thomas and Richard. The observation that Richard Nance, son of Sir Alexander, might be one and the same as Ralph Nance is an interesting one. The Cornwall Subsidies of 1524 record at Illogan: Ralph Nance goods 13 1/2 Henry Nance goods 13 1/2. There is no record of a Richard Nance in the Subsidies. The 1522 Military Survey has a record of a Nicholas Nance at St Martin-in-Meneage. The author of the Nance booklet has assumed, not unnaturally, that this is another son of Sir Alexander - seeing that the latter had estates in that place. If Richard, the eldest son, is one and the same as Ralph, it would be likely that he would take his father's ancestral home at 'Trengove', but he does seem also to have inherited the manor at Truthall from his mother's side of the family. You also need to know that there are two substantial farms/manors at Illogan, both of which I visited this month. One is called 'Trengove', the other 'Nance'. It does seem likely that 'Nance'was built by Henry. The two manors sit about a mile apart, on two broad ridges above a shallow valley, in rich farmland. You can see pictures of them in the photo folder on my new trengove e-room - groups.yahoo.com/group/trengoves/, which I would strongly encourage you to join - as this discussion could be usefully carried on there too. I will put a copy there if I can In the e-room I have uploaded pictures and lots of resgister etc extracts on Nances/Trengoves. Mark of Trengove
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Post by Zenobia on Apr 28, 2007 14:50:13 GMT -5
Hi Mark I've been meaning to put a little 'article' about Visitations in the How To section, but just have not had the time to get to it yet. But in a nutshell, the portion in italics (the original) can be considered accurate one or two generations on either side of the signatory; anything beyond that needs corroborating evidence. Vivian's additions too are generally quite accurate if taken from primary sources such as parish register entries, feet of fines and IMPs. The parts I always am leery of are the long pedigrees going back many generations, and the additions sourced as "Harlien MS # so and so." These can be highly suspect. Anyway, you certainly have proven the existence of a Ralph, and the feet of fines document quoted by Vivian proves a Richard. Whether either of them was a son of Alexander could be open to speculation, but in any case I think it is a moot point, because... 1587: "Richard, John of Trengove, 21 October"In other words, at his death, he was called John Richard of Trengove, and in other records he was called John Richard Trengove, so there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he is the son of a man called Richard Trengove. So that leaves Ralph out. It also leaves out the Richard with the feet of fine, as the pedigree shows two daughters and co-heirs - whenever the word co-heirs is used with daughters it means that there were no male heirs. Daughters only inherited when there was no male heir, and the daughters always shared the estate roughly equally. This is referring to the main estate in cases of persons of the gentry or higher; daughters could of course (and often were) given grants of money or occasionally small landholdings during their father's lifetime or by his will, but the main estate had to remain with the eldest son. Anyway, I think you need to be searching for a man called Richard Trengove as the father of your John. He could certainly be of a cadet line of the family, perhaps a cousin of Alexander. You also have to consider the possibility that "Richard" of unknown surname may have had a leasehold and farmed some of the Trengove land, and simply called himself "Richard Trengove" because of the association with that land or estate. He could have even been the manor smithy... Surnames were so mutable back in those days that it is really hard to determine who people are with much accuaracy... Please refresh my memory - did your later Trengoves use the name Nance also? If so, then I think it is much more likely that they were part of the Armorial Trengove family than if they went by Trengove only. Dunno if I have time to participate in a Trengove Newsgroup (I have a lot on my plate now), but please feel free to quote me there anytime.
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Post by marktrengove on Apr 28, 2007 16:26:17 GMT -5
Interesting, but I'm not convinced of the the need to look for a Richard Trengove, separate from Ralph. The key thing to note in the burial details is that he was 'of Trengove'. This does not to me imply a patronymic, but a place - 'Trengove-(vyan)', which is the name of the manor which is still there today.
There are no other baptisms of Trengoves at Illogan in the period, apart from those of John Richard's children. If they were cadets/retainers, one would expect more baptisms. Conversely, as far as Henry goes, there are a number of entries which are clearly for Nance servants.
I have found no use of the 'Trengove' name, either as a main term or an alias, before Nances occupied the Trengove property in the time of Sir Alexander. The use of the name 'Nance' continues in the line of Henry only, but 'Trengoffe/Trengove' is later revived some generations later by the Nances of Warleggan, who retained the remains of Henry's great fortune.
The name 'Trengove' continues for a time in the St Erth, Breage, Sithney area, which centres on Truthall, which Sir Richard Nance of Trengove-vyan is known to have held. As you say, Sir Richard died son-less, so the brace of Trengoves round there look to me like retainers/cadet family lines.
There is also a Trengove family living in Constantine in the 1580s. Interestingly, there are still two farms in the area called 'Trengove'. The Trengoves/Nances are recorded as holding land at Constantine in an earlier generation, so there appears to be a connection here I have yet to work out.
By the end of the 17th Century all these other Trengove lines have disappeared, and they are all confined to the Redruth/Stithians/Gwennap/Perranarworthal area. The only other separate line appears to be around Bodmin Moor, where the Trengoffes of Warleggan still retain their gentlemanly status, based on the reamains of Henry's fortune.
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Post by Zenobia on Apr 28, 2007 18:34:25 GMT -5
Interesting, but I'm not convinced of the the need to look for a Richard Trengove, separate from Ralph. The key thing to note in the burial details is that he was 'of Trengove'. This does not to me imply a patronymic, but a place - 'Trengove-(vyan)', which is the name of the manor which is still there today. Sorry, I did not mean to apply that Trengove was a patronymic, but that the use of Richard(s) was. If he is alternately calling himself (or being called by the church clerk and those who know him) John Richard, John Richard Trengove and John Trengove, there are three possibilities: 1. He is the son of someone named (unknown) Richard and the family is associated with the estate of Trengove, and alternately use the locational along with the the traditional inherited surname of Richard. 2. He is the son of someone named Richard (unknown), and the family is associated with the estate of Trengove etc. In this case the Richard would be a 'true patronymic' meaning he was the son of a man named Richard. 3. He is the son of a Richard Trengove, and is using the patronymic combined with the inherited surname of Trengove. This would be similar to the Dutch custom of calling for example Thunis Cornelisen, son of Janns Cornelisen: "Thunis Jannse Cornelisen" or even just "Thunis Jansen". I gave an example of the latter earlier above, where a girl who was married in the 1600s at Phillack (if I recall correctly) was called "Catherine Tom Roberts". Tom was not the girl's middle name, it meant she was the daughter of a Thomas Roberts. People just aren't used to seeing this with English-based surnames, but it was reasonably common once you get into the 1500s. So if John Trengove was the son of a man named Ralph, he might simply call himself John Trengove, or he could call himself John Ralph(s) or even John Ralph Trengove. But there would be no sense in the name "Richard" being included anywhere in his name, middle names not being in use at that point. Take a look at the How To thread on varied surnames and alias and note the examples. Now, if you are correct in your assessment that the Trengove surname was not in use prior to the Nance occupation of the property, then I subscribe that the third theory would be the correct one. The other reason that I lean toward #3, is that in scenarios #1 and #2 you would find alternate uses of John Richard and John Trengove, or John Richard alias Trengove, but not all three names strung together. I am sorry if I am being exasperating (ask Ian about that ha ha ), but I just know that if he was the son of a Ralph, then the "Richard" would never be included as part of his name.
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Post by marktrengove on Apr 29, 2007 3:38:16 GMT -5
Yes, I think your third scenario is a possibility.
"He is the son of a Richard Trengove, and is using the patronymic combined with the inherited surname of Trengove. This would be similar to the Dutch custom of calling for example Thunis Cornelisen, son of Janns Cornelisen: "Thunis Jannse Cornelisen" or even just "Thunis Jansen"."
I think it a reasonable assumption that Ralph and Henry had an equal share in 'Trengove' after the death of Alexander - as they were assessed in 1524 for an equal subsidy of 13 1/2. Henry, getting rich from his land deals (I suspect he was buying land up cheap after the dissolution of the monasteries) then has 'Nance' built and moves out of 'Trengove'. Perhaps Ralph had no children, and 'Trengove' reverted to Henry on Ralph's death. That would account for the absence of any record of Trengoves in the parish of Illogan after 1588.
I think the key to this is to find out the history of 'Trengove' from land deeds etc, if any exist. Any thoughts on this?
Interestingly, the 1569 Muster roll shows a Richard Trengo with a pike nearby at Gwennap. Perhaps this might be the father of John Richard Trengove?
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Post by marktrengove on Apr 29, 2007 5:04:37 GMT -5
I always think it is worth thinking laterally on a problem, so here's another scenario to add to your three:
Here are the records realating to 'John Trengove' at Illogan etc.:
Sibble Trengove, dau. of John, bap. 7 June 1562 Saundrye Trengove, son of John, bap 19 August 1565 John Trengoffe, bill (Muster Roll of 1569 - Illogan) Richard Trengo, pike (Muster Roll of 1569 - Gwennap) Thomas Trengove, son of John Richard, bap. 12 October 1572 Richard, John of Trengove, bur. 21 October 1587 Richard Trengove, son of John, bap.10 November 1588.
There may be two, not one John Trengoves in the parish in the period. The first is a John Trengove, living in the parish throughout. Between 1569 and 1572 John, son of Richard Trengove of Gwennap arrives in the parish, having a son Thomas c.1572 and dying there in 1587. To differentiate between the two, one is named 'John' in the records, the other 'John (of) Richard'.
There may be other scenarios too!
It doesn't, of course, get us any nearer to identifying the father of the original John Trengove. I need those land deeds!
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Post by marktrengove on Apr 29, 2007 14:04:47 GMT -5
Oner further thought - was John the son of a Richard, who was an illegitimate son of Richard Trengove/Nance of Truthall?
Perhaps the son mentioned on the Visitation did not die in childhood, but was a bastard?
I'm going to stop this thread now and go into evidence gathering mode. This could take some time.
Any thoughts on obtaining early land deeds, and Court of Chancery records, as I have a possible lead for the latter?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 29, 2007 14:46:11 GMT -5
G'day Mark, Suggest you start with the CRO in Truro and they should be able to help from there. The Redruth Studies Library is another (think that is still the name). But start with CRO and I am sure you will find some help there. It is possible I may have some 'old' indexed catalogues here somewhere but - 'hold the phone' :- CRO - Index to Cornish Probate Records 1600-1649 Pt. 4 TRENGOVE T 445/1,2 Henry (alias Nance), Illogan, gentleman, nunc. w., oath 1625 (i.e. Nuncupative Will of two pages, with oath, dated 1625. Quote the T 445/1,2 number with the surname.) Another CRO Booklet entitled - Pedigrees and Heraldic Documents - Handlist No. 3 1981 p. 7 - AD.388/23(iv) Pedigree of Trengove of Nance, 15th to 18th centuries, copied 20th century. p.10 - AD.388/1 Volume containing notes on TRENGOVE alias NANCE, Gooch and Arundell, with some drraft pedigrees, 17th to 19th centuries, early 20th century. I also have booklets of CRO Accession Lists from the 1980's but they will be time-consuming to go through. Hope this is of some assistance. ;D And, whilst checking through some of this stuff I found some items that I might need to look at also! Uh-Oh - another pile of books on the floor!
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Post by marktrengove on Apr 29, 2007 17:43:11 GMT -5
This is helpful!
More for my list of things to do at the CRO next time I'm there - April 2008!
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