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Post by Zenobia on Apr 12, 2007 17:38:41 GMT -5
Henry Edwards died in Lelant in 1679, leaving a will in which he named the following overseers:
"friends and kinsmen ARTHUR PAYNTER of Trelissicke & HENRY EDWARDS of Ludgvan"
Aurthur Paynter's relationship to Henry was former uncle, as he had been married to Henry's youngest aunt, Grace Roscruge.
I am trying to determine the relationship between Henry Edwards of Lelant and Henry Edwards of Ludgvan. They could not have been closer than some sort of cousin.
First, a brief history of Henry of Lelant:
He was born in 1600, the son of Thomas and Jane (Roscrudge) Edwards. He had two younger brothers, Thomas and Benjamin, both of whom disappear from the records (Benjamin is found on the Protestation Return for Lelant, but nowhere else).
Thomas, Henry's father, had a brother William (d. 1645), who was presumedly younger than he, and two half brothers, William and Stephen. Apparently both Williams lived to adulthood as Thomas in the family visitation mentions two sisters as both dying in infancy, but does not state that any of his brothers died young.
Thomas' full brother William appears to be the father of a John Edwards who almost certainly born no earlier than 1610.
Now on to Henry of Ludgvan.
The Henry Edwards of Ludgvan referred to as kinsman in the will of Henry of Lelant was married in 1647 in Ludgvan as "Henry Edwards the younger" to Mary (no surname given). They had four children chr. at Ludgvan: John 1648, Alice 1649, Henry 1654 and Mary 1658.
The 'elder' Henry at Ludgvan was Henry the younger's grandfather and died in 1654, leaving a PCC will in which he names grandson Henry Edwards as his main legatee. He also mentions Henry's son John and daughter Alice and mentions another grandson, John Mitchell, who has two sons John and Henry. He also leaves money to the poor of Ludgvan, and of Lelant. This elder Henry names no children, so presumedly his unknown son (the younger Henry's father) is deceased.
Since the younger Henry is a 'kinsman' of Henry of Lelant, the question is, where does this branch descend from?
A few Ludgvan anomalies:
Henrie Edwards, s/o Richard, chr. 11 Apr 1630
Henrye Edwards and Alice m. 30 Oct 1608
Harry Edward chr. 1581 to Willia.
Do we have a case of extrememly early marriages here?
Henry s/o William marries Alice in his 20s and begets a Richard, who marries at about age 20 and begets Henry the younger, who marries at 17?
If the above scenario works, then the elder Henry must be a son of Thomas Edwards of Lelant's elder brother William. This would make Henry (1581-1654) the first cousin of Henry of Lelant. The kinsman named in the will would then be a first cousin twice removed.
Can anyone see any other possibilities? I am still troubled by the chronology... Also, it seems like the name John should come into play somewhere, but I found no John Edwards at Ludgvan. Does anyone have easy access to the early Ludgvan burials...?
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 13, 2007 9:38:03 GMT -5
Is this the problem previously referred to?? I will need a good deal of time to look at this but will try my best in between trying to sort out the US Trewhellas etc. Unfortunately, I do not have access to early Ludgvan burials but I believe the OPC for that Parish is our old friend - BILL CURNOW. Suggest you try and get in touch with him to see what he has. And, should you make contact, please get him to contact me.
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Post by Zenobia on May 2, 2007 15:31:05 GMT -5
Well, yesterday I had a profitable Ludgvan day at the FHC.
I found the following additional marriage and deaths:
18 Nov 1627, were married Richard sonne of Henrie Edwards to Lowdie his wife
? ?? 1635, Ricahrd Edwards was buried 18 Feb 1635/6 Lowdie Edwards was buried
I also found an Admon for Richard Edwards, dated 30 Jan. 1635/6, with an inventory taken on Jan. 9.
So the scenario I described in my last post now fits:
William Edwards begat Henry (Sr.) in 1581 at Ludgvan.
Henry m. Alice in 1608.
Richard, s/o Henry, m. Lowdie in 1627 (whether Richard married at say, age 18, or whether his father had a brief earlier marriage is still undetermined.
Richard and Lowdie had two childen, Henry (Jr.) in 1630, and Jane in 1633.
Richard and Lowdie both died early in 1635.
Henry (Jr.) was raised by his grandfather, Henry (Sr.) and was the main legatee in his 1654 will.
Henry (Jr.) m. in 1647 (only 17 - very unusual for the time!) to Mary and had several children.
Since the line starts with a William, and since Henry (Jr.) in 1678 was named as a 'kinsman' of Henry Edwards of Lelant, then William Edwards must be a brother of Henry of Lelant's father Thomas.
The question now is, was there one William, or two?
In the 1620 Visitation, Thomas Edwards indicated that he had a brother William, and also a half-brother William. Both apparently lived to adulthood, as Thomas mentioned two half-sisters as dying in infancy, but not his brothers. This would seem to be born out by the 1641 Protestation Return of Lelant, which shows a William Edwards and a William Edward. The only other known William Edwards, son of John Edwards, would have been two young to sign the 1641 return.
If there were indeed two William Edwards, which one was the father of Henry (Sr.) of Lelant?
Piecing together the Williamses was very difficult, given the time period and lack of records.
Here is what little I have so far:
A William Edwards, probably the full brother of Thomas, died at Lelant ca. Jan. 1845, as an inventory was taken then on his estate. The Admon bond (no longer extant) was issued in April of that year. One of the inventories was Arthur Edwards, grandson of Thomas and hence grand-nephew of William.
In 1641 William Edwards was listed next to John Edwards on the ProtRet.
A deed in Henderson for some land in Gwinear, dated 1632, shows a tenant as "Sedwell Thomas, wife of William Edwards of Lelant."
John Edwards, Gent., b. probaby ca. 1610 or a bit earlier (based on the ages of his earliest known grandchildren) had three known children - Mary, wife of John Penberthy, William, who married Dorcas Eva in Camborne in 1660, and had a half-dozen children chr. at Lelant, and Sedwell, who married Thomas Thurleby ca. 1665. John obviously must have been a son of William and Sedwell Edwards. John's wife was Alice (maiden name unknown), who was bur. at Lelant 19 April 1669.
Another probable child of William and Sedwell (Thomas) Edwards was Frances Edwards, who married Nicholas Renfrey at Kenwyn in 1625, and then as a young widow m. John Harris at Gwithian in 1628. At the death of John Harris, administration of his estate was granted to his widow, Frances and to John Edwards of Lelant. Since Frances is contemporary with John, he is assumed to be her brother.
Now we know that Henry Edwards of Ludgvan was the son of a William and b. in 1681. He seems to be too old to be a brother of John and Frances, who must have been born between 1600-1610.
So the conclusion seems to be that Henry was a son of the elder William Edwards, who was the half-brother of Thomas of Lelant.
This William is much more shadowy. A William Edwards appeared as early as 1585 in the subsidy lists of Lelant, with goods to the tune of 3 pounds. He also appears in 1593, 1597 and 1599. Thomas Edwards (b. 1564) first appears in 1597. In 1613 a William Edwards pays a subsidy of 2s. William and Thomas both appear with goods in 1624, 1625, 1629 (both called 'gen' in 1629). In 1641 a William Edwards still appears, but Thomas has been replace by his son Henry. The next available subsidy is not until 1664, when we have Henry Edwards and John Edwards, both with goods.
So, was there one William, or two? If two, was the man in the subsidies the same person all the way through? If one, how do we account for 2 Williams in 1641 on the ProtRet?
One last interesting aside, the will of Henry Edwards of Ludgvan was signed by a Francis Harry, but this would appear to be a male, from the spelling.
Some things needed :
The 1641 Protestation Return for Ludgvan. Subsidies lists for Ludgvan.
Comments wanted.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 4, 2007 8:10:41 GMT -5
I thought I sent you a copy of the Ludgvan Protestation Return a few years ago?? There is a John Harry, a Tobias Harry, another John Harry, a Richard Harry, and a William Harrye but(a quick look) I cannot see any Edwards there.
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Post by Zenobia on May 5, 2007 18:35:50 GMT -5
I thought I sent you a copy of the Ludgvan Protestation Return a few years ago?? There is a John Harry, a Tobias Harry, another John Harry, a Richard Harry, and a William Harrye but(a quick look) I cannot see any Edwards there. Hmmm....there has to be at least one Henry Edwards on there.... You sent me Lelant, Morvah, Towednack, Zennor and Gwithian, but not Ludgvan. Maybe you would like to type it out on the Ludgvan Board? It would be a nice addition.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 6, 2007 13:18:49 GMT -5
My apologies - yes there is one Henry Edwards as the third last name on the list. (priort to the 'officials', of course). I was sure that was a list I had sent you but will now have to see what I can do to produce the full list. (Given my recent track record transcribing long documents ......) But it will not be done tonight or possibly for several days yet due to other commitments.
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Post by Zenobia on May 8, 2007 15:21:04 GMT -5
My apologies - yes there is one Henry Edwards as the third last name on the list. (priort to the 'officials', of course). I was sure that was a list I had sent you but will now have to see what I can do to produce the full list. (Given my recent track record transcribing long documents ......) But it will not be done tonight or possibly for several days yet due to other commitments. Ah yes, I want to see those Trewhella deeds first. The ones you posted 'invisibly' Thanks for checking. There are a number of stray Edwards in the Ludgvan PR, but they seem to trail off into nowhere. So not finding any others on the PretRet is most helpful.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 8, 2007 16:37:19 GMT -5
Will try and post the Trewhella Deeds information tonight - if I get the chance.
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Post by Zenobia on May 11, 2007 23:46:47 GMT -5
My apologies - yes there is one Henry Edwards as the third last name on the list. Were those the only Edwards listed? Because there was at least one other Edwards family having children at Ludgvan just shortly before 1641....
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Post by Cornish Terrier on May 12, 2007 12:40:07 GMT -5
What I gave you is what I have from that Document. Might still have to wait a couple of days or so for the Trewhella deeds. Have had power problems with the Internet site again and am sort of playing catch up. Will do the best I can ASAP.
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Post by Zenobia on Jun 19, 2007 16:18:44 GMT -5
The mystery deepens: From the A2A I find the folliowing: Hawkey family of St. Columb Major LEASES ST. DENNIS Enniscaven or Nanscawen
FILE - ref. WH/1/5096 - date: 30 Dec. 1599
90 yr. lease (lives of Jn. Osborne, s. Thos. and dau. Susan); rent 5/-. Wm. Edwards and w. Philip of Unylelant, yeo., to Jn. Osborne of St. Dennis, yeo. Consideration: £7. 1/5 part of tenement in Enniscaven or Nanscaven late in occ. of Joan Anny, wid. FILE - ref. WH/1/5104 - date: 16 June 1650
99 yr. lease (life of lessee's w. Alice); rent 5/4. Jn. Edwards of Lelant, gent., to Hen. Knight of St. Austell, blacksmith. Consideration: £4. 1/5 part of Ennis caven now in occ. of Thos. Osborne, yeo.
The reference to the 1/5 part clearly shows that John Edwards inherited the land from his father, William Edwards. However, the following from Henderson shows that William's wife was Sedwell Thomas: Charles G. Henderson "Calendar of Cornish Manuscripts" Vol. 7, p. 127. Deed dated 1632 lists tenants on a parcel of land in Gwinear, including "Sidwell Thomas now wife of William Edwards of Lelant."Now John Edwards named his daughter Sedwell, which would be in keeping with Sidwell Thomas being his mother. John I estimate was born no earlier than 1610. Were it not for the fact that the 1641 ProtRet for Lelant shows two William Edwards, I would now be tempted to assume that William father of Henry of Ludgvan in 1581 was the same William, but that Henry was born to Philipp, an earlier wife.... The "1/5 part" is also troubling, as it would suggest to me that the land in question was roughly equally divided among 5 female heirs, of which Philipp was one. But if that was the case, then John, being the son of Sedwell Thomas, would have no right to it, unless it was granted to William and Philipp outright, with no reversion in default of heirs of Philipp's body, which is NOT the norm... Help!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 20, 2007 13:40:39 GMT -5
Things are becoming a little clouded here and I am becoming confused. ;D (It is now Winter in Oz etc. ... )
First part of this problem seems to be the fact that we jump from a Deed of 1599 to a reference in 1650 (51 yrs. later) and then have a mention of 1632.
And in that I am having a problem following things (but partly because I am tired and have other things in consideration).
Your comments about the "1/5th" part is, to my mind, not really sound.
I must say that I have not, as yet, delved into the way these leases were arranged but there is enough information that I have seen to suggest that nothing was 'cut and dried' accordiing to our modern day thinking.
What I mean by that is that the '1/5th' does not necessarily mean that there were five daughters (as you suggest) who were given equal shares in the property.
It may be that the 1/5th mentioned was the only part of the Estate that the Testator had any right to or control over.
And, after reading your note again, I think that is definitely the case.
(i.e. - no need to find any more daughters if we don't need them!) ;D
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Post by Zenobia on Jun 20, 2007 20:05:13 GMT -5
Hi Ian, You are right - let's leave any pesky daughters out... The reason it jumps from 1599 to 1650 is because the second deed involves John, son of William, now leasing the same land. John was born no earlier than about 1610, so was probably age 30-40 when the 1650 deed was made. William died in 1645, so he would have had control of the land until them. At some point after that I would assume John wanted to get the lease in his name. John was living in 1669, and probably died within a decade afterward, taking into consideration what years are and are not extant in the Lelant P.R. It certainly never occurred to me to go searching for these Edwards as far west as St. Dennis, but I guess the gentry had land all over the place... As for the 1/5, I have to respectfully disagree again. A tenement was not ususally a large piece of land, and 1/5 would represent a very small amount. Main estates were kept together (by law until fairly late) to be passed to the eldest son, small divisions of land into numerous sections can often be a clue that an estate was divided among daughters (who shared equally when there was no son). The division did not neccessarily have to be recent - it could be decades or even further back, with the legal heir of each of the daughters continuing to have that one small piece for generations.... This is not a certainty, but something to at least be open to... I need to start going thru Henderson's again, page by page....
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jun 21, 2007 11:59:14 GMT -5
Healthy discussion once again! I do see some of your points as, it seems, you see some of mine so we have room to work. Perhaps we need some of our new members (and guests) to throw in some comments also. I may have missed a critical word here (tenement) after having read your latest but we are talking about a different time when things were not as we know them now. IF I missed 'tenement' then some re-thinking 'may' be in order. However, most Lands in those days were quite large and belonged to a relatively small number of ... 'owners' ... Without searching through things tonight I seem to recall references to the likes of a 'five-part lease'. (And I am willing to stand corrected if I am wrong!) If you look through some of the abstraced deeds you may notice that (e.g.) Arundell had dealings with Helston, Towednack, Sennen etc. so held lands all over the place. Many of those properties may have had (and likely did) more than one 'residential' building on it. When allocating leaseholds I would percieve that each lease may revolve around each 'dwelling'. This, mind you, is just food for thought as I am far from being an expert here. But I hope to have provided something worth thinking about before we get ourselves too far lost.
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Post by Zenobia on Jun 23, 2007 18:48:03 GMT -5
Well, the main problem (for me) is the fact that the 1599 deed shows William's wife as Philip.
William's son John was not born until about 1610 or later.
In 1632 William's wife was Sedwell (formerly Thomas).
William died in 1645.
John named his only known son William and one of his two known daughters Sedwell.
So it would appear that John was the son of William and Sedwell.
But the land leased by William and Philipp in 1599 is in the possession of John and Alice in 1650 (a few years after William's death), so we know that it is the same William, not two different men.
So it would appear that William first married Philipp, and sometime before the birth of John in 1610+ he was marreid to Sedwell Thomas.
Where it gets hairy is that Henry Edwards of Ludgvan was born in 1581 to a William Edwards.
Another child of William Edwards, and presumedly sister to John, is Frances Edwards who married Nicholas Remfrey in 1625, and John Harry in 1628.
Two William Edwardses signed the 1641 ProtRet.
It looks like likely that Frances was born to William by Phillip.
And John was born to William by Sedwell.
But what of Henry?
Was he to born to this family?
Or does he belong to the other William Edwards that is on the ProtRet? These two Williams would appear to be half-brothers, and both sons of Henry Edwards of Lelant (1516-post 1593).
You may want to re-read my first post in this thread to get a feel for the whole layout of the family again, before trying to piece this latest together.
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