Rogers, Thomas, Richards, Reynolds

[ullie]

Hello I'm new to this board and trying to trace the movements of Elizabeth Mary Reynolds nee Richards. She married a William Reynolds, where and when a mystery. She grew up in St. Ives her parents Elizabeth [ Rogers] and John Richards. Elizabeth Mary Richards was born in 1872 and died Elizabeth Mary Reynolds 1940. William's occupation was a Chimney Sweep.  

I also noticed a reply to Rogers [SueKemp] on Sept. 23 2011 by Gary Letcher Marylands USA who's a descendant of William Nicholls Rogers. Could Gary contact me if possible as I have compiled the Rogers from St. Ives Book and are looking for William's descendants in USA.

[sue]

If your Elizabeth Mary Richards was definitely a St Ives girl, then I would think that in 1891 she was age 18, servant to Pee Permewan at The Terrace St Ives.

That would equate to the 8 year old Elizabeth Richards in 1881 who was at home with her parents John Richards & wife Elizabeth.

And I deduce her death was Mar Quarter 1940 age 68 in the Penzance Registration District, so may have stayed locally, apparently.

I see possible children George F Reynolds Mar Q 1914 & Phillis E Reynolds Dec Q 1915....

Now, I see FreeBMD has one of this 3-person marriage pages for an Elizabeth Mary Richards in March Q 1909 in the Penzance RD... Vol 5c Page 972.

There is a George Reynolds who married in the Penzance RD March Q 1909 Vol 5c Page 372.... and guess what? He's also on a 3-person marriage page, according to the transcription....

A Large Coincidence!!

Peering at the original image for the 2 people, it seems to me that the transcriber for Elizabeth's entry in the index has made a mistake, and her entry should read Page 372, not 972.

So this Elizabeth Mary Richards married a George Reynolds in the Penzance RD which includes the St Ives area, in March Q 1909.

Could your William Reynolds have been George???

Sue

P.S. I think that the fact that in 1881 there is a George Reynolds in Penzance age 29, then 1891 age 37, occupation chimney sweep, might be relevant........

P.P.S. Are George & Eliz (Bessie) in Exeter in 1911?

[Cornish Terrier]

Okay, two facts and then maybe a question or two.

1. John Richards and Elizabeth Rogers were married at Halsetown 29th December 1864 - he age 30 or possibly 38 and son of William Richards whilst she age 24 daughter of Henry Rogers.

2. Lizzie Mary daughter of John and Elizabeth Richards of Trevalgan Downs St Ives was baptized St Ives Primitive Methodist Circuit 22nd August 1872.

Now then - you say Elizabeth Mary Reynolds died in 1940 so I presume this is the burial at Barnoon Cemetery 5th February 1840 of Elizabeth Mary Reynolds of Albert Terrace age 67.

Question(s)

1. How do you know this is the same Elizabeth Mary??
2. If we cannot find a marriage in England or any children then why should you think Elizabeth would be buried in Cornwall??
3. Except for the lack of a marriage, how do you know Elizabeth Mary Richards married William Reynolds and what do you know about them in the years prior to 1940??
4. Presuming you do know something about them then where were they in those years?

As a matter of interest there was an Elizabeth Mary Reynolds, married, age 37, birthplace St Ives employed as a domestic servant at Digswell in Hertfordshire in 1911. No sign of a husband but her details are certainly a close match.

CT

[Cornish Terrier]

Hmmm - I see that the Barnoon Cemetery MIs show a John Richards age 57 died 27th October 1890 and on the same headstone apparently is Elizabeth Mary Reynolds age 67.
Difficulty here is that the date for Elizabeth is 2nd February 1914 but after checking FreeBMD I suspect this might be a transcription error. There is no death record in FreeBMD to match that date but the month (February) makes it the March Qtr so if 1914 is meant to be 1940 then it would answer one of my questions in my previous post.

CT

[sue]

Well that's interesting that Mrs Elizabeth Mary Reynolds is buried with her father but no mention on that headstone of Mr Reynolds.

The Eliz Reynolds servant in Herts 1911 sounds promising.

I am interested to read Ullie's responses to your questions CT; I must admit I rather jumped the gun & plunged in!

Sue

[Cornish Terrier]

Sue, a start always has to be made somewhere and with little information to work with your approach was a good start.

As for the Hertfordshire entry - that is one that I found that is 'close' however I know there was at least one other marriage in roughly the right time-frame in the Penzance district where a Reynolds (Charles I think) married someone named Elizabeth Mary. It is quite possible then that the girl in Hertfordshire is someone else altogether.

I think part of the key will be finding William Reynolds the chimney sweep in 1891 or 1901.

CT

[ullie]

Hello All,
Thank you for replying to my post.
My answers are as follows.
Yes Elizabeth is buried with her father in St. Ives, which makes me think Elizabeth and William were living somewhere else in England when William died. I have Elizabeth's death certificate which has William as her husband and where I found out he was a Chimney Sweep.
I also thought she married George Reynolds and got the marriage cert. which does not confirm this is the Elizabeth I'm after. I also am of the opinion Elizabeth Reynolds in Digswell is my Elizabeth. How I found out her married name was the newspaper article relating to her mother's death which was in 1916. So I assumed Elizabeth Mary was married sometime between 1892 and 1916. The only one I came up with was George in 1909 he was 52 years and she 36 years with Elizabeth living at the Gulval Vicarage. George's occupation Tailor. I could not find Elizabeth on the 1901 census for a long time, but found her listed as Elizabeth Richards 28 yrs. born Cornwall living in Camberwell working as a general servant. She certainly got around if they are all the same person. I thought if I could find out when she moved back home I might have a year to start looking for William's death. Yes the transcription date is wrong. 2 Albert Terrace has been the home of the family since 1911. Her brother dying in 1922 there. Hope all this has answered your questions. I think my next move is to go through the Probate notices working back year by year from 1939.
Thanks for your input.
I also cannot find her older brother William after t h 1881 census. Any suggestions?

[sue]

Hi

Would you be able to furnish us all the details from the 1909 marriage certificate you hold of George Reynolds to Elizabeth Mary Richards? Name of bride's father, name of groom's father, groom's abode, witnesses etc.  I may be misunderstanding, but what I'm reading is that you discounted this marriage as being the one you seek, on the grounds a) name George b) occupation tailor.

I am thinking that we must not discount the possibility that the situation is not straightforward here, as in so many cases – perhaps more than one marriage, perhaps estrangement by 1911, perhaps some fibs, perhaps the husband's 1st name was incorrectly given way later in 1940 .... many possibilities!

For example, I think the George Reynolds chimney sweep of Penzance born Falmouth enumerated in 1881/91 may in 1871 have been in Bodmin as a lodger, then before that was perhaps in 1861 with parents/siblings in Truro – his father George a tailor......
And George Reynolds that same chimney sweep in Penzance in 1881/91 married his 1st wife Ann Kessell in Penzance in 1872, giving his father's occupation as tailor. (And when did Ann Kessell Reynolds die? Possibly Jun Q 1908?? What were the names of any adopted children present in George Reynolds' household 1901?)

People do sometimes tell fibs - & besides, a chap probably learnt some of his father's craft as a child, and may possibly have even returned to a bit of tailoring in his 50s. There was no rule saying one could not change one's occupation for a while.  And how many credible candidates can be found in the 1901 census by the name George Reynolds, occupation tailor, born 1857 +/- 5 years, to be the groom at the 1909 marriage?

The Elizabeth Mary Richards of the 1909 marriage was exactly the right age to be yours; and to be of Gulval Vicarage indicates to me she had been a servant there to the long-term vicar William Wingfield - servant being what your Elizabeth Mary Richards' occupation was in 1891, & quite likely also in 1901 & 1911 it seems.

Can you view the 1901 census entry for William Wingfield born 1815 London resident Gulval, so as to see the list of his servants at that time? Just in case there is a clue there, as servant posts were often passed to acquaintances/family members of any departing servant. ( I have an example in my own family of a girl being a teenage servant in Cornwall, progressing to London, coming back to Cornwall & recruiting a relative to another servant placement, returning to London etc.) I appreciate 1901 was 8 years prior to the 1909 marriage.

All the details from Elizabeth's 1940 death certificate would be useful too, just as they are written – quite what it says regarding William & chimney sweeping; who was the informant etc., as again another pair of eyes might see some clues there.

And can you quote exactly what the newspaper Elizabeth Richards' funeral notice 1916 said? E.g. “daughter Mrs X Reynolds of...”

One more thing - I have just done a search on FMP for 1901 for William (variants) Reynolds any age, anywhere, occupation chimney sweep.
2 results only: born 1864 resident Marylebone London & born 1876 resident St Saviour Southwark London. I would think it would be worth pursuing them, to eliminate them from enquiries. (I can't immediately see either in 1911.)

And if you were minded to humour me, it just might be worth finding the George Reynolds of the 1909 marriage, his whereabouts in 1911.... could he be the chap in Exeter, what is he doing and who is he with? Is it the groom of 1909, (who you may have gathered I am not sure should be tossed away yet!) having done a runner? Again, I just think it's sometimes worth casting the net a little wide, then slowly drawing the net in by eliminating people from enquiries.

Sue

[Cornish Terrier]

Sue - I was about to write something here and then got called out to 'multiple fires' along the Hume Freeway'! - two fires now all sorted so now I have to remember what I was going to say!

OH yes, I agree with all your points so the more information we can get from documentary sources the better.

Ullie - if possible could you scan those documents and send them to Sue and myself please so that we can see the details first hand and, possibly, use signiatures to compare with other records? If you can do that then please let us know and we will let you know the best way to do so.

No email addresses to be recorded online please!

CT

[ullie]

Thanks for the suggestions. I cannot put my hand on the marriage cert. at the moment Elizabeth's father was stated as John, which fits in but he had been dead for a long time which is usually indicated on the cert. which it wasn't.
With Elizabeth's death cert. under occupation it has Widow of William Reynolds [Chimney Sweep] The Informant was S. Grenfell Causing the body to be buried 7 Naryivey ? Terrace St. Ives. He wasn't the registrar, I can't work out that signature. The newspaper article does not give the initial Just says daughter Mrs Reynolds and Mrs Rees [who was Annie]
Elizabeth's notice says We regret to learn of the death of Mrs Elizabeth Mary Reynolds who passed away at no 2 Albert Terrace ST.Ives on last Friday last. The funeral took place on Monday and was attended by a number of sympathisers. Her probate left 933.pound 6 shillings to Willie Herbert Lane auctioner and John Ladner Rogers retired horseman. I cannot find any connection with John to the Rogers family at the moment as I have not found what happened to older brother William after 1881.
If I could find when she returned to St. Ives would really help. Do you know if there was voter lists? Did they pay rates? I am guessing they held the freehold to 2 Albert Terrace. What else could I look at do you think.
Sue

[ullie]

p.s. I had a quick look for the death of George on Free BDM, he didn't die in Penzance.

[sue]

Well Ullie, you say the bride at the 1909 marriage named her father as John. I have seen plenty of instances where a marriage certificate does not mention that the father of either party is deceased, it simply gives his name, so I do not see that as detracting at all from the possibility that your Elizabeth Mary Richards was the bride 1909 of Gulval Vicarage.

In fact, how many Elizabeth/Lizzie Mary Richards born 1872-1873 can you find in the west of Cornwall with a father named John?
Using a combination of Freebmd, OPC and 1881/1891 censuses, I think you will find that the number is extremely small indeed!

You say that the mother's funeral notice 1916 merely refers to daughter Mrs Reynolds, not the formal title which would normally be Mrs [husband's name/initial] Reynolds.

So from that, all you know is that your lady was, at one time, for however short or long a period, ended by separation, divorce or death, married to a chap by the name of Reynolds.

Then as far as I can tell the only reference you have to Elizabeth Mary's husband being named William is on the 1940 death certificate, where the name William was supplied by informant “S Grenfell causing the body to be buried of 7 Nanjivey Terrace St Ives”. (An everyday St Ives' terraced house that you can view on Googlemaps.) He could have been the doctor, a neighbour, a friend, a distant relative – just someone to whom it fell to organize the funeral. Thus, this name “William” for Elizabeth Mary's one-time husband is looking more & more tenuous!

I really think it would be worth you pursuing each of the points mentioned in the preceding posts in this thread. ….. which I personally would wager will leave you with a net with just the one pair of people as your catch , but this is something you need to do, the elimination game, step by step, to satisfy yourself.

Sue

P.S. There was a 1922 Electoral Roll to which there is some access, but I doubt that this would assist you; most men over 21 were entitled to vote, but women had only just started to become enfranchised following the 1918 Representation of the People Act, and that was limited to married women over 30 who were the householder or wife of the householder.

P.P.S. Regarding the probate of Elizabeth Mary Reynolds' estate in 1940, I believe you will find that the 2 chaps named would be the executors, that being to whom probate is granted; that does not mean they were beneficiaries of the estate. To find the beneficiaries you would need to sight the actual will.

[ullie]

Thanks for your input. I haven't found the marriage Cert. yet, my study is in such an upheaval at the moment but I am keen to find out the witnesses as I didn't list them in the section on Elizabeth. I'm sure you are right but until I've concrete evidence I'm reluctant to claim George over William or visa versa. In that newspaper article all the female attendants were listed as Mrs then surname yet all were married with husbands still alive including her sister, so I didn't think any different.
Thank you with the advice regarding the Probate, I didn't know that. How do I go about obtaining a copy of the Will?
Sue

[ullie]

Thanks for your input. I haven't found the marriage Cert. yet, my study is in such an upheaval at the moment but I am keen to find out the witnesses as I didn't list them in the section on Elizabeth. I'm sure you are right but until I've concrete evidence I'm reluctant to claim George over William or visa versa. In that newspaper article all the female attendants were listed as Mrs then surname yet all were married with husbands still alive including her sister, so I didn't think any different.
Thank you with the advice regarding the Probate, I didn't know that. How do I go about obtaining a copy of the Will?
Sue

[sue]

Well, I wouldn't say I'm certain your Elizabeth Mary married George, just placing a wager!
I absolutely agree, you need evidence!

Establishing who those witnesses were at the 1909 marriage may help, fingers crossed (one of Elizabeth's siblings would be great, but I suspect you might have noticed if that were the case.) Meanwhile, do you perchance have a note of the actual date of the marriage, and which church or registry office it was in? (Might be able to find another copy, from that information.)

If you address each of the items CT/I have raised in this thread e.g. finding George in 1911, Rev. Wingfield's household in 1901, other Elizabeth Mary Richards born 1872/3 with a father named John & what became of them, and so on... I am hopeful that you will end up with evidence, one way or the other.

And a little bird has just told me that FindMyPast www.findmypast.co.uk/freeweekend
is free to everyone midday GMT Friday 6th March to midday Monday 9th March, so that's worth using.... Different websites' search engines find different results.....

As to Elizabeth Mary Reynolds her 1940 will,
probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=reynolds&yearOfDeath=1940&page=3#calendar
you can pay £10 and "get" it from the website - it says it is made available to you online for 10 days, so you would need to be sure you were around at the right time to download it. (10 days seems jolly mean to me. )
There may be another way, but I don't know it.

I had time on my hands yesterday, so I trawled through the probate index for persons by the name of George Reynolds, to eliminate him or otherwise from enquiries. None struck me in particular, except perhaps 1936 (or was it 1939?) Nottinghamshire where probate was to an Elizabeth Reynolds. Don't see why this one would be yours though. I didn't do William Reynolds. And of course so many people didn't - and still don't - leave wills, so your chap(s) may not feature in the National Probate Registry.

Sue

P.S. I think it's best to stick to pursuing one person at a time, but I thought I'd just jot down while I remember: searching FREEBMD for Any Event, I find apparently just the one John Ladner Rogers, born 1867, and one marriage, 1890, to Frances Eva - John being a gardener age 23 so same person; son of Thomas. (OPC)