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Post by spikeharwood on Jul 12, 2014 5:11:04 GMT -5
aka beginners being bamboozled. Mary Jane Davey married Robert McIntosh in St Day, 19th April 1863. Both aged 23. What he is doing in Cornwall (since before the 1861 census where he is listed as a visitor), is unclear. Understanding each other would have been something of a challenge methinks. Her father is listed as Martin, so we locate the marriage between him and Jane Verran (a minor) on 7 July 1839 at Kea. Jane's father is Richard. After that I couldn't track down any further info on Mary Jane between the parents wedding and hers. That is until I discovered that Martin had died on 9 September, eight weeks after the marriage. And then, Jane remarried, to William Thomas on 27 September 1840. I've been able to track Mary Jane through each census where she is listed as Thomas. My first two questions in all of this are 1. The details for the second marriage show Jane as spinster rather than widow and Banns rather than Licence (which I was thinking was used for widows). Or does the fact that she still shows as a minor override all else? 2. What was the protocol for baptism under such circumstances? Should Mary Jane be bp as Davey, Verran or Thomas (depending on the timing)...and why cant I find any record of the baptism? Mary Jane was born 25 March 1840 - I've seen the date in a family bible - so I'm not desperate for the baptism date but it would be nice to complete the paper trail.
Cheers Spike
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 12, 2014 16:46:42 GMT -5
I have been taking a look at this problem and trying to gather some information but I need to put it aside for a while and get some sleep. Will pursue it hopefully this afternoon and try and come up with some answers.
One thing I have noticed is that I can find a baptism for only the youngest child of William and Jane Thomas. So it is not only the baptism of Mary Jane Davey still missing but also baptisms for Clara/Clarinda (about 1842) and William Henry (about 1843/4).
CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 13, 2014 5:53:54 GMT -5
Spike - I am still unable to find any of the missing baptisms but in an effort to more accurately piece the family together I have gone back a couple of generations in the Davey family. Unfortunately that is raising more questions than I bargained for! Among those questions are 1. was Martin Davey's father married twice or just once and 2. in either case WHERE ARE THE MARRIAGE RECORDS!!! Martin Davey (husband of Jane Verran appears to have been baptised at Kea in 1817 son of Martin and Jane Davey. This is a sole baptism for this couple and I can find no marriage. And then Martin Senior begins having children with someone named Mary from 1819 through 1840 but once again I cannot find the marriage record. Adding to this problem is that there appears to have been yet another son born prior to Martin but in his case I cannot find a baptism! The details of John's baptism might confirm whether or not his father was married twice but even so there is yet another record that cannot be found - a possible burial for the first wife Jane! I know John is probably a brother to Martin for two reasons - 1. Martin senior was the son of a John Davey and 2. John married Mary Ann Verran in 1837 (possibly sister to Jane) and named his father Martin Davey, miner and his residence as Bizza in Kea. Martin Davey was also 'of Bizza' and named his father as Martin Davey, miner. If you have managed to find anything more on this family then I would like your input but in the meantime I am going to retire to food and DVDs to try and give the poor old grey matter a rest. Will try and work some more on this problem tomorrow. CT I almost forgot - being married by Banns rather than Licence (or vice versa) has really nothing to do with whether Jane was a minor or and adult or whether she was widowed or not. I will try and dig up some useful information on Marriage Licences for you to help explain things a little better. And Mary Jane should have been baptised as a DAVEY given she was a legitimate child and Martin Davey was her father. Problem is that however, whenever and wherever she was baptised we still cannot find the record!
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Post by spikeharwood on Jul 13, 2014 9:11:56 GMT -5
I haven't spent any time on the Davey branch for several months. I have plenty of other branches and trees to keep me occupied. However, having discovered this Forum, I've checked through the info I have and done a bit more research to put my query together. Martin Davey was 22 when he died in 1839 according to OPC. I didnt have access to Ancestry six months ago, but they have him as baptised 2 Nov 1817 at Kea, parents Martin and Jane (and all as DAVY). FHL 1595810. I forgot to mention that it looked as though there were two brothers marrying two sisters. John was married in 1837 aged 21. I hadn't been able to find anything about Martin's parents either, although I was fairly sure the father's name was Martin but I don't think I knew that she was Jane. You say Martin Senior's father was John. I think I just bumped into him today for the first time. Is he the one with the wife Eleanor and about 12 children? And Martin Senior bp 1788? I did have an old printout of the children of Martin Davey and Mary. Looking at it again I notice there are two families both parents Martin and Mary. One set of parents aged 50/45 and the other 30/35 according to the 1841 census. They have 12 (at home) and 3 children respectively. The youngest of the 12, baptised 25 Dec 1840 was named Martin, 12 months after the other Martin died. Nice touch. It had actually never occurred to me that he may have been Martin's father. It's all a bit hard to believe but his age in the census fits in with dob. There is an interesting post to Rootsweb here archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CORNISH-GEN/2008-11/1225543294discussing this family. And there is a marriage 12 May 1770 between John Davey and Eleanor Pearce on the OPC. They would be my ggggg grandparents, btw! It would seem from the post that Mary Jane's (half) uncle Richard came out to SA on the Storm Cloud in 1858 with 9 children including 3 "single men". Coincidentally a Philip Hocking was also on that ship. He was my grandmother's grandfather. Mary Jane Davey came out here in 1866 and she was my grandfather's grandmother. Anyhow thanks for your continuing efforts in all of this, CT. Has been interesting to discover a few new things and I look forward to checking out what became of the family over here.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 14, 2014 1:08:24 GMT -5
Spike - I only tracked some of this information over the weekend but the links seem clear enough back to the marriage of John Davey and Elizabeth Pearce with the link between them and the elder Martin coming via Martin's burial in 1845 at the age of 57. I have also now taken a look at the Rottsweb link you provided and for the moment have just one comment. The person posting the information had a bit to say about John Davey being a 'sojourner' with a small emphasis on that meaning he was from another unkown Parish. I tend to think that is a misconception and will dispute the claim even though I have not yet tried to find his origins. My reason for that is that I have seem the Parish Register entry of the marriage which shows that he was a 'sojourner of this Parish' (i.e. Perranarworthal). That tells me that although John was a sojourner he was a resident of Perranarworthal meaning that his occupation took him away from that Parish for periods of days or more. ( sojourn - originally, to stay for a day; to dwell for a time; to make a short stay [Collins English Dictionary]) It is easy to take this on face value but in reality wherever a 'sojourner' was at any given time he must have had a 'home Parish'. Poor Laws and other similar Acts would have dictated that I should think. To answer your question - yes, John Davey and Eleanor Pearce were married at Perranarworthal by Banns 12th May 1770 and Martin was baptized 20th February 1788. In am in the process now of entering the other children. I have already entered all the children of Martin and Mary and have included Jane as a first wife with sons John and Martin. I will add the two marriages to the Verran girls later and see where that leads but then may have to move onto something else for a while tonight. The second younger Martin you mentioned with wife Mary appears to have been baptized in 1809 son of Michael Davey. I have no intention of doing much with them at the moment other than to ensure I don't get them mixed up with the main line we are looking at. Marriage Licences - Here is a brief description taken from a publication called 'Parish Registers - A McLaughlin Guide' produced by Eve McLaughlin of the FFHS many years ago. 'If people wanted to marry in a hurry, or without local publicicity, or outside their own parishes, they obtained a licence. It was partly a status symbol, used at first by the gentry, and then by better0off farmers and tradesmen, to show that they had arrived socially. It was also used by nonconformists, and for the marriages of parents of bastards. In this case, it was paid for by the parish overseers, while they had the man nailed down and more or less willing.' That is a 'guide' only and in fact it probably worked differently from County to County or from region to region. For example, there are many instances of marriages in the Cornwall registers where bastard children are involved yet Banns are still read. And in a perhaps surprisingly large amount of cases you will find people married by Banns followed by the baptisms of children within only a couple of months. You will also find cases where a child is baptized on the same day the parents are married! CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 14, 2014 1:52:34 GMT -5
Spike - despite my comments about 'sojourners' in my previous post (which I still stand by) it is possible that I may have just found where John Davey came from. All of his children were baptized at Perranarworthal as we know and until 1781 he was recorded as a 'sojourner' in the registers. The following burials are the first true indication that he may have originated elsewhere:-
Elizabeth daughter of John and Eleanor Davey of Perran buried 2nd March 1781 at Stithians Betsey daughter of John and Eleanor Davey of Perran buried 7th December 1785 at Stithians
The fact that Elizabeth was buried at Stithians suggests this was the 'home' Parish of either John or Eleanor but more likely John. Given the marriage took place at Perranarworthal it is more likely that was Eleanor's home Parish.
Because of this burial I have now had another look at the marriage record. It certainly states 'sojourner OF this Parish' for John Davey but I noticed the Banns were in a separate part of the register. A look at those Banns shows that John Davey was a sojourner in Perranarworthal thus indicating he may have been from elsewhere. Unfortunately the only possible burials I have found for John Davey so far do not record his age so it will be a matter of working on the names of his children for clues.
CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Jul 15, 2014 5:18:51 GMT -5
So, for the record, we have failed spectacularly to find the following: baptism records for Mary Jane Davey, Clara Thomas and William Thomas marriage records for Jane and Martin Snr and Mary James and Martin Snr burial record for Jane On the other hand, you have found famously the following: birth and burial records for Martin Snr a second family for Martin Snr Richard, a son of Martin Snr who has turned up in SA the siblings of Martin Snr the parents of Martin Snr and my ggggg grandparents and their marriage record. I am well pleased with this outcome. Thank you so much. I'm presently recording the family of Richard here in SA. As well as the nine children he brought with him, he had another three here. I've found about 20 family trees for him...or is that one tree copied twenty times. No mention at all of Martin Snr's first family! When you are recovered sufficiently, the Verran family have their own suite of problems. The father was Richard. Not sure which one. Or their mother; Betty, Mary or Polly? Unless Polly and Mary are one and the same. Anyhow, that's another piece in the jigsaw puzzle of genealogy. Cheers Spike
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 15, 2014 7:32:50 GMT -5
And Mary Jane is even more complicated with only the record of birth from the Bible you mentioned. I have checked FreeBMD again and there are but two possible entries for her using DAV* as a search term. Both are in the March Qtr of 1840 and in both cases the name is registered as MARY DAVEY which means there is no guarantee either is your Mary Jane. As Martin Davey is supposed to have been her father and the birth occurred some months prior to her mother's marriage to William Thomas then she should have been registered as DAVEY. It is possible that Mary Jane along with Clara (Clarinda) and William Henry Thomas might have been baptized in one of the Non-conformist chapels and it is possible that the registers for the relevant chapel have either been lost or have not yet become available for transcription. The marriage/s of Martin Davey are a more curious problem and the first difficulty is the dilemma about whether or not he really was married twice. Marriage records indicate that 'a' Martin Davey had two sons named John and Martin who married Verran sisters. We have a baptism for the younger of these brothers, Martin, in 1817 with his mother recorded as Jane yet no record can be found for John to confirm the names of parents. This leaves the door open to the possibility that there might be an error in the register with the mother's name incorrectly entered as Jane. If that were the case then we should be looking for just one marriage. I cannot adequately explain why at least some of these records cannot be found although I suppose there is the remote possibility that we may have to look at Devon or elsewhere. I can tell you that I have a marriage that should have occurred in the Redruth area around 1820 and in 30 years I have still not been able to find it! The work I did over the weekend on this family produced the following:- Richard Verran married Mary Barret 20th June 1803 at Kea with witnesses Mary Davey and Henry Skewes Children:- Elizabeth daughter of Richard and Mary Verran of Perran bp. 23rd September 1803 Stithians Thomas son of Richard and Mary Verran bp. 5th January 1806 Perranarworthal Richard son of Richard and Mary Verran bp. 21st May 1808 Perranarworthal Mary Ann daughter of Richard and Mary Verran bp. 7th April 1811 Perranarworthal (poss. bu. 1812 Perranarworthal) Mary Ann daughter of Richard and Mary Verran of Bessow, miner bp. 4th September 1814 Perranarworthal (married John Davey 13th August 1837 Perranarworthal) Henry son of Richard and Mary Verran of Chycoose, miner bp. 5th July 1816 Gwennap Jane daughter of Richard and Mary Verran of Bessow in Gwennap, miner bp. 31st October 1819 Perranarworthal (married Martin Davey 7th July 1839 Perranarworthal) Richard Verran of Gwennap age 64 buried 1st March 1843 at Perranarworthal - this is 'possibly' Richard above. The 1841 Census seems to through a small spanner into the works! It shows the family of a Richard Verran at Chycoose, Gwennap. Richard is age 55 with wife Mary and children Mary age 25 and Henry age 15. On the face of it this appears to be the above family and after checking the OPC records again I can find nothing to suggest another Richard and Mary around this time. Two main points that I can see are:- 1. Mary would appear to be Mary Ann bp. 1814 except that marriage records show she married John Davey in 1837 2. Henry at age 15 would have been born sometime between 1821 and 1826 given ages for the 1841 Census only needed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 for persons 15 years and over. Problem with that is that the son of Henry and Mary above was baptized in 1816 and so would have been 25 in 1841. With relationships not specified in 1841 it is possible young Henry was a nephew and I guess it is possible Mary was at home as a visitor but simply recorded with the family under her maiden name. This may be right as I don't recall being able to find John Davey in the 1841 Census. Not sure why you think Elizabeth might have been the mother of the Verran girls but the records above indicate Mary Barret is probably the correct link. And Polly is an old 'nickname' for Mary. CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Jul 17, 2014 21:00:15 GMT -5
Note to self: Self, you have previously been warned about the perils of abbreviations when searching forenames. So, if you insist on searching for Richard on OPC you will miss all the Richd entries. Just sayin'.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 18, 2014 1:42:59 GMT -5
Quite true! The OPC site is actually a lot better than most sites in many ways but most importantly I think in the way you can search. And even though there are times when you can bring down a mountain of possibilities on yourself I find the east way to search is often the simplest .... SEARCH BY INITIALS ONLY! i.e. to search for Richard Verran simply enter 'R' and 'V' into the forename and surname search fields and hit the Go button. CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Jul 18, 2014 5:16:16 GMT -5
Looks like we have a hit with Devon. And methinks that there may have only been the one marriage. I'm now wondering if John may have been born in Devon, and maybe even a few others?
Name: Mary James Gender: Female Marriage Date: 11 Apr 1814 Marriage Place: Stoke Damerel,Devon,England Spouse: Martin Davey FHL Film Number: 916925, 916926, 916927
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 18, 2014 18:52:49 GMT -5
Very good - and I agree that there was probably only one marriage. But I would be much happier if I could see a reason why Martin's mother would have been recorded as Jane in 1817. It is not uncommon to find incorrect names written in registers and when the name is that of one of the parents the most common thing I have found is that the name entered is that of a grandparent. In this case 'Jane' is written when it appears it should have been Mary so I would expect that the mother of either Martin or Mary would have been Jane. As Martin was the son of John and Eleanor then it follows that I would expect Mary James' mother to have been Jane.
We currently don't have parents for Mary James but if her mother turns out to have been anything other than Jane then ................. more thinking to be done!
BTW - I have had a look but been unable to find any children for Martin in Devon. Unfortunately I only have FamilySearch as a source at the moment for Devon so it may be there are registers not yet represented.
CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Jul 19, 2014 0:58:30 GMT -5
In my wanderings amongst the Daveys in FreeCen, I came upon an occupation of Gilder. The transcriber, not being able to get an exact reading wrote 'Gilder or gelder - nuts or nuggets?"
Anyway, back to more serious matters.
The OPC for Stoke Damerel is Hugh Wallis. He has access to the baptism records up to 1817 and does lookups. I have sent off a request
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jul 19, 2014 2:46:02 GMT -5
As soon as I read this I reckoned I pretty much knew what the occupation was - but, as I usually do in these cases when I am not sure, I elected to check my trusty Collins English Dictionary:- gild v.t. to overlay with gold-leaf or gold-dust; to cover with anything resembling gold; to brighten; to give a fair appearance to; to embellish. - gild'er n. one whose business it is to overlay with gold. Contacting the OPC is a good idea and hopefully Hugh will be able to find something. It is also worth asking him to check the marriage record and gather any other information it might contain. Details such as 'marital status' (if recorded) to confirm whether or not Martin and/or Mary were single or widowed, Martin's occupation if it was recorded and especially any details about where he and Mary were from. CT
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Post by spikeharwood on Jul 19, 2014 3:40:38 GMT -5
Richard Verran appears to have had a brother, Thomas, bp 1784 who had a son Henry bp 1822. That fits in nicely with your nephew theory. In 1851, Mary Verran is now a widow and Head. The only other person in the household is Mary A Davey, dau, married, lodger. Good chance it was her in 1841 as well. LOL. Please tell me this didnt go over your head.
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