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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 8, 2013 23:39:53 GMT -5
Pmac - I still cannot find a baptism for Francis but I do have something else that may be useful. The marriage itself was not recorded in both Paul and St Buryan - rather the Banns were published at Paul and the marriage took place (and was recorded) at St Buryan. Francis signed his name as 'Francis Richards' but what is most interesting to note is that when the Vicar filled out the form in the Register he recorded:- Francis Richards junr. of PaulThat suggests the possibility that Francis was the son of another Francis Richards and that piece of information might help you track down the right family. Don't forget that Francis might also have been baptised out of Cornwall and I know during that period there were Cornish miners up in Devon. CT
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Post by graylight on Jan 9, 2013 8:05:16 GMT -5
Off on a bit of a tangent here but I always felt a little troubled with why Charles should marry Susanna in Bodmin (Which for your records was in 1802 - April 4th). On the certificate they are both described as 'of this parish' and for the purpose of the banns would have had to turn up at church for three weeks. Still, I comfort myself that Bodmin is almost exactly halfway between Newlyn and Loddiswell, Devon where Susanna hails from. And one of the witnesses is a J Beckerleg which I believe is a good Penzance name
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pmac
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Post by pmac on Jan 10, 2013 23:52:10 GMT -5
Thank you CT that is indeed interesting... Hadn't thought of a chr outside of Cornwall admittedly. Definitely worth checking out, Ta.
Graylight: I have found that some strange occurences happen in FH, such as 1 child out of 10 in one of my families was born in Sheffield where all the rest were Redruth C'wall, both parents and their families were local. Have no idea why at this stage but presuming a 1-2yr work contract of some sort or maybe they were on holiday just don't know. Child before was R'ruth as was the child after. Not sure how long you had to be in your new Parish to be considered "of this Parish" And yes, Beckerleg is a good Penzance name (Marazion) One of my ancestor lines :-) Cheers.
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Post by graylight on Jan 11, 2013 0:48:20 GMT -5
That's the frustrating thing about FH, pmac, is that we have to surmise such a lot of things. Still love it though. All the best with your search
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pmac
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Post by pmac on Jan 11, 2013 3:15:57 GMT -5
Lol! yep! been at it awhile myself (1989) Graylight, it's very addictive, Ta! You Too.
CT can you throw some light on the following?
according to OPC site :Frances Richards brd 6 Jun 1769 Paul C'wall
according to Family Search :Frank Richards brd 6 Jun 1769, Paul C'wall
was going on the senior idea, only found a burial, nada else. Which would be the more accurate if frances i'm out of luck, if frank I have hope.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 11, 2013 6:17:30 GMT -5
I can tell you that it is definitely NOT Frank! And looking at the page in the register I would say that the name is definitely FRANCES. But don't let that discourage you! You need a little dogged determination in this game and the answers will be there somewhere - you just have to work out how to find them. CT
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pmac
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Post by pmac on Jan 11, 2013 11:09:28 GMT -5
Thanks for that CT, appreciated.
True i'll keep searching it, there's an answer somewhere out there :-)
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 12, 2013 0:01:40 GMT -5
A little thinking has brought about the following:- 1. How do you know that the 1813 burial is that of 'your' Francis Richards? Given there 'appear' to have been just three children from a 1760 marriage I would be considering the possibility that either Francis or Mary died around, or soon after, 1767. That would then bring in the possibility of a second marriage for the surviving spouse. Of course if there were only three children in seven years it also offers the possibility that Francis and/or Mary were of 'more mature age' when married. 2. I mentioned that the PR shows Francis as 'Francis Richards Junr.' when he married. At that time I said that it may mean Francis was the son of another Francis Richards. But it also means that he may merely have been the younger of two Francis Richards in the area. 3. Given Francis named his first son John it is certainly possible his father was a John Richards. In that case perhaps it might be worth looking at some Wills. The Cornwall Record Office Catalogue includes the following Wills for John Richards of Paul which would have been written after Francis' supposed birth:- AP/R/2406 Will of Alexander Richards of Paul 1745 AP/R/2461 Will of John Richards of Newlyn, Paul 1747 AP/R/2583 Will of John Richards, cordwainer, of Mousehole, Paul 1755 AP/R/2584 Will of John Richards, yeoman, of Paul 1755 AP/R/2784 Will of John Richards of Paul 1767 AP/R/3590 Will of Alexander Richards, fisherman, of Paul 1803 I have included two Wills for Alexander Richards given the connection to John but there does not appear to be a Will for Francis. There are some sites that have abstracts of Wills so it would be an idea to try and check those to see if any of the above might be included. If Francis was the son of John I would be hoping that one of the above might have been the father and that Francis might be named. AH! - I got thinking further about 'only three children' and realised that I have been a little 'slack' in my checking! I quoted only three children because you have only listed three and I did not check all those details because I made the mistake of taking your information for granted. I see now that there may have been quite a few more than three children so I will need to review my thoughts. CT
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pmac
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Post by pmac on Jan 12, 2013 6:23:11 GMT -5
Sorry only put the first 3 children down as relevance to the point, there were more...
Francis Richards chr about 1735 1st married (27 Sep 1760, St. Buryan) Mary Jacka chr 7 Jun 1735 dau of John Jacka and Elizabeth. Children : 1. John Richards chr 29 Nov 1761 Paul C'wall..brd 16 May 1763 Paul C'wall 2.Mary Richards chr 29 Apr 1764 Paul C'wall 3. John Richards chr 21 Feb 1766 Paul C'wall married Mary Mathews 4. Elizabeth Richards chr 25 Mar 1769 Paul C'wall 5. Francis Richards chr 11 Sep 1771 Paul C'wall married Mary Willis 6. William Richards chr 30 Aug 1774 Paul C'wall 7. Jennifer Richards chr 8 Mar 1778 Paul C'wall brd 27 Aug 1780, Paul C'wall 8. Jennifer Richards chr 24 Sep 1780 Paul C'wall Notes : Francis Richards, widower 2nd marriage was to Mary Warren 7 Feb 1785, Newlyn, Paul Cornwall.
Can't remember the source of the burial note for Francis, used to be a site online that had the plot and headstone details for Paul Church graveyard but I can't seem to find it anymore.
The family moved at some stage to Market Jew St in Penzance I know 'cause of census records later on.
Didn't have the will info Thank you for that CT.
and I haven't yet searched for any more children maybe to the new wife Mary Warren, I do know that a little later some grandchildren married Battens.
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pmac
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Post by pmac on Jan 12, 2013 6:35:44 GMT -5
Another interesting tidbit I just found.
A Janifer Richards was buried in Paul C'wall on 16 Nov 1701 father was a William Richards there were other Jenifers Richards's born to John Richards son of Francis and a William too. Jennifer is a bit unusual in the Richards line.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 12, 2013 8:02:27 GMT -5
I have my doubts about this. My earlier notes, based on just three children, suggested the possibility that either Francis or Mary may have been widowed and then remarried. Now I have to say that I am doutbful about a second marriage for either.
When Francis married Mary Jacka at St Buryan in 1760 he appears to have signed his own name. The widowed Francis Richards who married Mary Warren at Paul in 1785 signed with his 'mark' which was an 'O'.
Jenifer (var.) is a name that is very often interchanged with Jane. Although I have some families with both a Jennifer and a Jane you will find that in many families a child might be baptised as Jennifer, married as Jane and be either Jennifer or Jane at the baptism of her children!
CT
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pmac
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Post by pmac on Jan 12, 2013 8:49:47 GMT -5
Ooh! What a good pick-up on the 2nd marriage signature and one I completely failed to see, What a fopar, Ta!
Yep fully aware of the Jenifer/Jane bit, Jenny/Janey/Jen/Jane. What I'm alluding to is the William/Jennifer combinations in the family offsprings, I'm trying to see where connections are as none of the children of Francis had any Margarets which may rule out John Richards and Margaret Battin as Francis's parents or grandparents.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 12, 2013 10:21:34 GMT -5
Good thinking - and I am just trying to make sure you are aware of the problems some names can cause. Now that you are aware of, and understand, the problem of the signiatures on those marriage records I will throw something else at you. For that 1785 marriage between widowed Francis Richards and widowed Mary Warren we would need to find the first marriage for each. I would be hoping that these marriages occurred no earlier than 1754 so that we might compare signiatures/marks but there is always the possibility that we may have to look earlier. I have seen examples of 'marks' changing over the years. This is probably more the case with women but the marks of some men can also change over time so it may not be a straightforward excercise to identify Francis. More awkward is that I have at least one example where I am quite sure that a man signed his name at one marriage but then made his 'mark' at the next. It is possible that age caught up with him and he was no longer able to write comfortably or clearly and it may also be that the writing hand was injured or incapacitated in some way. So as a last resort we need to keep in mind that this might have happened with your Francis. CT
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pmac
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Post by pmac on Jan 12, 2013 12:36:41 GMT -5
Lol! now you got me head spinning.
Mary Warren was a spinster. The nearest marriage I can find for a Francis Richards other than to Mary Jacka is one to a Mary Boddy in Gulval 1759. the next nearest would be 1740's Sithney.
There are no other children bapt to a Francis Richards in Paul or nearby parishes from 1750 to 1795 the next lot are son Francis and Mary Willis's children from 1798 on.
There are 3 burials of a Mary Richards between 1780 and 1785 Madron 13 Jun 1780 Paul 14 Mar 1781 Paul 21 Jun 1781 but no way to tell if they were married or what age they might of been. The Records seem to be poorly recorded for the time.
I agree on the last part, It's a possibility not to discount.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Jan 12, 2013 21:04:43 GMT -5
My apologies - you are quite right. I seem to have got myself mixed up with looking at several different records at the same time! And this Francis also signed with his 'mark' - a very square 'm' with what appears to be a secondary mark that looks like 'op' in superscript. A Francis Richards was buried at Gulval in 1790 and there are several burials for Mary Richards at Gulval although none appear to have been born early enough to have been Mary Boddy. If it is any consolation I am having similar problems with the Francis Richards at St Ives! I think the best idea at the moment is to try and track down some of those Wills. Hopefully at least some have been abstracted and made available somewhere. CT
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