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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 31, 2012 7:14:43 GMT -5
Hi Graylight - the term 'junior' usually means one of two things - 1. the son of another person of the same name or the younger of two persons of the same name in a particular area. Easy to assume the father/son and that us usually what you might expect. But it is easy to be caught out when the second option applies as it does more often than you might think. In this case I now believe it was because he was 'son of John'. I have found marriages for some of the children of John and Elizabeth but it appears possible that Elizabeth and some of the children may have emigrated. Peggy - I have not entered her marriage into my database yet but it looks like John Hall would be correct Elizabeth - married Peter Doble Jago (recorded as Peter Deeble Jago) at St Hilary in 1840 and had at least 8 children Benjamin - married Elizabeth Grey at St Hilary in 1841. Benjamin and Elizabeth were both witnesses to the marriage of Elizabeth to Peter Jago. John - as per my earlier this is the man at Towednack and he married Margaret Jewell at Marazion in 1839. Bridget - married widower John Moore Richards at Madron in 1850 and had three children. Alice, Richard, Sally and Jane all seem to disappear and I have so far found no further trace of any of them. One of the girls is most likely the mother of Richard Carbis Jacka who was born in the March Qtr of 1850. He appears in the 1851 Census as Richard Carbis, grandson, age 1. That is about all I can manage for tonight. CT
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Post by graylight on Oct 31, 2012 14:26:32 GMT -5
More than enough CT. I can add to your database through the Bridget (Biddy) Jacka and John Moore Richards marriage (my g-g grandparents). J M Richards is the son of Newlyn fisherman Charles Richards...will fill in the details tomorrow as I am on the train at the moment. Cheers.
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Post by graylight on Nov 1, 2012 5:22:36 GMT -5
This is what I have on the marriage and subsequent family of John Moore RICHARDS and Biddy JACKA.
JOHN MOORE RICHARDS (son of CHARLES RICHARDS (IV) of Newlyn and SUSANNAH MOORE of Loddiswell, Devon. was born 26 Mar 1805 in Paul (prob Newlyn), Cornwall, and died 25 Jun 1858 in Killevose, Camborne, Cornwall. He married (1) ELIZABETH SEMMENS 25 Nov 1827 in Paul, Cornwall. She was born 15 Mar 1802. He married (2) BRIDGET 'BIDDY' JACKA 11 May 1850 in Madron, Cornwall, daughter of JOHN JACKA and ELIZABETH RULE. She was born Abt. 1830 in Marazion/Ludgvan, Cornwall.
Notes for JOHN MOORE RICHARDS: 1841 Census Madron (Penzance) HO/107/143/1 ED1 Folio 10 Page 13 Gass Court (off Jennings Street) John RICHARDS, 37, Mason, in county Elizabeth RICHARDS, 39, in county Thomas(ina) SEMMENS, 70, in county (likely to be Elizabeth's mother)
1851 Census Penzance HO107/1918 ED4a Folio 531 Page 15 Jennings Lane 60 John Moore RICHARDS, head, marr, 46, Mason Journeyman, Paul, Cornwall Bridget RICHARDS, wife, marr, 22, Marazion, Cornwall Amelia CORNISH, visitor, 7, Scholar, Paul, Cornwall
John Moore RICHARDS was buried 4 Jul 1858 at Treslothan. Residence was Ramsgate, near Camborne.
More About JOHN MOORE RICHARDS: Baptism: 07 Apr 1805, Paul, Cornwall Burial: 04 Jul 1858, Treslothan Parish Cause of Death: Scirrhus (hard tumour) of pasterus (?) Medical Information: Christopher Bennetts was in attendance at death
Marriage Notes for JOHN RICHARDS and ELIZABETH SEMMENS: Witnesses were Charles RICHARDS and Richard PENTREATH (this last person seemed to be a witness at every marriage so could have been attached to the church. Was Charles RICHARDS, John Moore's father or brother?)
Notes for BRIDGET 'BIDDY' JACKA: 1841 Census Marazion HO/107/144/2 ED3 Folio 45 Page 14 Trevenner John JACKA, 64, Tin Miner, in county Elizabeth JACKA, 44, out of county Alice JACKA, 15, in county Richard JACKA, 13, Miner Copper, in county Bridget JACKA, 11, in county Sally JACKA, 9, in county Jane JACKA, 7, in county
1851 Census Penzance HO107/1918 ED4a Folio 531 Page 15 Jennings Lane 60 John Moore RICHARDS, head, marr, 46, Mason Journeyman, Paul, Cornwall Bridget RICHARDS, wife, marr, 22, Marazion, Cornwall Amelia CORNISH, visitor, 7, Scholar, Paul, Cornwall
1861 Census Camborne RG9/1584 ED15d Folio 157 Page 23 Baripper 121 Biddy RICHARDS, head, widow, 32, Mine Count House Servant, Ludgvan, Cornwall Susan Jane RICHARDS, dau, 7, Scholar, Penzance, Cornwall Charles RICHARDS, son, 5, Scholar, Camborne, Cornwall John RICHARDS, son, 3, Scholar, Camborne, Cornwall
After John Moore RICHARDS' death, Biddy moved up to Settle, which is in West Yorkshire. She had two subsequent marriages.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 1, 2012 8:48:49 GMT -5
What is the source of the information about the birth/baptism of Elizabeth Semmens? Do you have any details about where she is supposed to have been born? Looking at the 1841 Census it would appear that Thomasen Semmens may have been Elizabeth's mother but unless Elizabeth was born at St Tudy then I cannot find a record of an Elizabeth Semmens (var.) with a mother named Thomasine anywhere near the right time. If it was St Tudy then her father would have been Joseph but this does not make much sense given she and John Moore Richards named a son Nicholas Simmons Richards. That certainly points to either father or a brother being named Nicholas. CT
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Post by graylight on Nov 1, 2012 10:01:38 GMT -5
Some of the information I have is taken from the RICHARDS family bible I possess. The actual entries are strange as they state...
John Moore Richards b Mar 26 185 Elizabeth Simmons b Mar 15 182
When I first started with this genealogy lark, I was a bit stumped by this and left it alone as I was researching the 'easier' CARLYON side of the family. John M Richard's son (Charles Moore Richards) married Sarah Carlyon (originally of St Martin in Meneage) up in Settle, West Yorkshire. It was only recently when I came back to the more 'difficult' Richards side of the family (there are quite a lot of Richards' in Cornwall), that I realised that these dates referred to the year 18(0)5 and 18(0)2 respectively. I think I found a relevant birthdate for Elizabeth Semmens on the IGI but had since discovered the difference between 'extracted' and 'submitted' entries. However on re-checking I find that there is a christening in Penzance of an Elizabeth Roberts Simmons 22 May 1803 in Penzance which could possibly correlate with the birth date I have. There are also a number of possible children of this union at Madron that fit into the 'gap' between marriage and death of Elizabeth which are Elizabeth Jane and John (18 Oct 1829) and Sarah (2 Dec 1832) and a second Elizabeth Jane (17 Apr 1836). I have only just discovered these so more work is needed on them. I have noticed a lack of a Charles (John's father's name) or a Susannah (his mother's) so I might be barking up the wrong family tree here. I have not come across Nicholas Simmons Richards so maybe I am. I had meant to broach this subject through the PAUL page at a later date.
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Post by graylight on Nov 1, 2012 16:26:51 GMT -5
i knew I had some info re: the whereabout of Richard Carbis JACKA. This is the post I received... Re: Elizabeth JACKA (nee RULE) born Lydford « Reply #10 on: Friday 11 September 09 01:54 BST (UK) » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi I have also been researching the JACKA surname and have arrived at the same 1841 and 1851 census records that you have. My interest is in tracing ancestors of a Richard JACKA who died in Sydney Australia on 11 May 1883. His death certificate shows his father was also called Richard Jacka, occupation of Shoemaker, and the mother was Sarah with the maiden name of Carbiss. He married Mary Crocker on 29 April 1871 at St Hilary Parish Marazion Cornwall. However, this marriage record shows his father was William Jacka (not Richard), a miner. For various reasons I believe that the Richard Jacka who died in Sydney in 1883 was the Richard Carbis Jacka shown in the Cornwall 1851 census as being age 1, grandson of Elizabeth Jacka, age 52 living at The Cliff. This also seems to be the same family shown in your email topic from the 1841 Cornwall census, living at Trevanna, and headed by John Jacka and his wife Elizabeth Jacka. Do you have any more information on this family? I am still undecided if the Richard Jacka I am researching (b 8/2/1850 shown on birth record as Richard Carbis Jacka) has a father called Richard Jacka and mother called Sarah Carbis or, if his mother was Sarah Jacka (which is a possibility because of an 18-year-old Sarah Jacka shown at The Cliff household in the 1851 census) and some other father, Richard or William. The rest of thsi thread can be found oat the following url www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,207376.10.html
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 2, 2012 4:16:41 GMT -5
That helps a little. So it is very much as I suspected with Richard Carbis Jacka. I had determined that there were only two possible Jacka girls who could have been the mother of Richard - Alice (1823) or Sally (Sarah) (c.1831). I had not been able to find any further information about Alice so I had been certainly leaning towards Sarah given she was still at home in 1851 with younger sister Jane who was a little young at 14 or 15. I would think the father was certainly a Richard Carbis but whether this is the same Richard Jacka with wife Jane as mentioned in the Rootschat thread I don't know. But once again we have evidence of the errors that can be found in BMD Certificates. Richard's father is recorded as William Jacka in the marriage record but Richard Jacka on his death certificate - I believe both are incorrect! Elizabeth Semmens - I looked at the baptism record of Elizabeth Roberts Semmens but once again there is a problem given this girls parents were Joseph Semmens and Elizabeth Roberts who married at Madron 21st April 1798. The only children I have found for John Moore Richards and Elizabeth Semmens:- Nicholas Simmons Richards baptised 28th November 1830 at Penzance Susan Richards baptised 22nd January 1833 at Penzance I find this a strange comment. There is a Susan born to John and Elizabeth as shown above but then I need to point out something else you posted a couple of days ago:- 1861 Census Camborne RG9/1584 ED15d Folio 157 Page 23 Baripper 121 Biddy RICHARDS, head, widow, 32, Mine Count House Servant, Ludgvan, Cornwall Susan Jane RICHARDS, dau, 7, Scholar, Penzance, Cornwall Charles RICHARDS, son, 5, Scholar, Camborne, Cornwall John RICHARDS, son, 3, Scholar, Camborne, Cornwall Susan Richards baptised 1st March 1854 Penzance (born 15th November 1853) Charles John Richards baptised 18th September 1859 Madron age 3 (born c.1856) John Richards baptised 18th September 1859 Madron When Charles and John were baptised the families residence was recorded as 'Union Workhouse'. But there are the two names you were concerned about so there is no problem with the identity of John Moore Richards. And something else I just found:- Elizabeth Moore Richards of Penzance age 8 buried 10th April 1836 Penzance I have been unable, so far, to find any further trace of the other children from the first marriage of John Moore Richards. I would expect to find a burial for Susan given another daughter was given that name in 1853. But wait! :- Nicholas Moore of Penzance age 6 buried 20th March 1836 Penzance It is possible that this is Nicholas Simmons Richards. The age and residence are about right but, more importantly, I am unable to find a baptism anywhere for a Nicholas Moore between 1828 and 1832. CT
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Post by graylight on Nov 2, 2012 12:41:06 GMT -5
Don't know that this helps clear muddy waters but I'll throw it in for what it's worth ;-) Taken from RICHARDS FAMILY BIBLE (my additions, taken from transcripts of Chapelry of St Mary's Penzance register are in brackets) Nicholas Moore (Richards) born Oct 2 1830 died Mar 12 1836 (burial Mar 20 1836, aged 6)
Elizabeth Moore (Richards) died Apr 5 1836 (buried Apr 10 1836, aged 8) Susan Moore (Richards) died Nov 1856
as this is from a family bible, I assume they neglected to put the name RICHARDS in. This would be taken as read, I feel.
The baptism for Susan Richards at is likely to be correct, but the Charles Richards you found at Madron is not Charles Moore Richards (my great grandfather) whose birth certificate I possess. He was born at Killevose, Camborne on the 14 August 1855. His brother John Moore was also born in the Camborne district.
With regard to my comment about not naming their children after John Moore Richards' parents, I was referring to his first marriage to Elizabeth Semmens which lasted at least nine years that we know of yet no children are named after Charles or Susannah.
There seems to be a lot of mixed-up names in this family . The Nicholas Moore of Penzance buried 20 Mar 1836 seems very likely to be Nicholas Simmons Richards bap 28 Nov 1830. Everything seems to point to it except for the discrepancy in names. ??
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 3, 2012 5:35:34 GMT -5
Are you sure? Remember that the record I found was for the BAPTISM at which time he was 3 YEARS OLD. The name is recorded as 'Charles John' and on the same day was also baptised 'John' Richards. Both are recorded as sons of John Moore and Bridget Richards and I really don't think there were two couples with identical names floating around Cornwall at the time. Also, the occupation of John Moore Richards at these baptisms was 'mason'. I think you will find that it probably IS your Charles Moore Richards. CT
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Post by graylight on Nov 3, 2012 7:39:58 GMT -5
Yes it certainly must be their baptisms. Because I didn't know that you had the correct parents and John's occupation, I assumed it must be another of the many Richards that were around. They must have come back from Camborne. John Moore Richards, the father, died in 1858 at Killevose, the year before the christening (death certificate held). Two years after the christening she is living at Barripper with her three children. It seems strange to come back by herself to christen her children at Madron, but my own mother christened my sister in a town which we had no connection with because she was a friend of the vicar who had moved from our parish to another one. Then again I suppose it could it be possible that the children were alone in the workhouse due to the recent death of their father and were subjected to the bulk christenings that seemed to take place from the workhouse at Madron? Many thanks for your diligence CT
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 3, 2012 8:47:05 GMT -5
Always good to have another pair of eyes on things like this .... even though the eyes at this end are not quite what they used to be. I did think it strange that Charles was recorded as Charles John when brother John was baptised on the same day but no doubt it is merely a clerical error at the time. I can't answer the question about why they would be baptised at Madron or why they might be in the Workhouse. Still some unanswered questions but if we keep chipping away most of the answers will be found. CT
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Post by graylight on Nov 3, 2012 12:59:10 GMT -5
In an attempt to find out whether the John Jacka who lived at Tredennack, Gulval in 1841 and Nancledry, Towednack in 1851 is the son of John Jacka (who married Mary Hawke and Elizabeth Rule) I have found a marriage on FreeBMD at Penzance in 1839 for a John Jacka and the only woman on the list that could be his wife is a Margaret JERRELL. Their children are 1 and 1 month at the 1841 census so that might indicate a recent wedding.
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Post by graylight on Nov 3, 2012 13:07:14 GMT -5
Having looked on the IGI for a Margaret Jerrell, I have found nothing so suspect there maybe a transcription error. On the same FreeBMD page the wife of William Moon is called Sally Jaity (who as I thought she turned out to be a Laity from Marazion).
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Nov 4, 2012 1:50:57 GMT -5
10th September 1839 Marazion by Banns John Jacka of full age, miner of Marazion, son of John Jacka, miner married Margaret Jewell, a minor, daughter of John Jewell, miner
I checked the original image of the St Catherine's House Index (FreeBMD) entry for this and the error occurs in there with her name recorded as 'Jerrell'. Looking at the image of the marriage I can see exactly how the error was made as the handwriting is quite ordinary.
What I cannot understand is how they Indexer made the mistake with the name of Laity!
CT
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Post by graylight on Nov 4, 2012 6:48:29 GMT -5
Just as a matter of interest, I'm going to throw another John Jacka into the mix. When I first came to live down here we chose the area because both my wife and I have genealogical roots here. We were looking for a house and the one we chose was at was is now called Plain-an-gwarry, between Marazion and St Hilary (although in the censuses it is often referred to Pednagwarry which I suspect to be its real name). It was coincidental that we lived quite near to Trevenner, the area where my Jacka family lived in 1841. On a walk around Marazion one day, I was delighted to find the gravestone of a John Jacka in the small cemetery that is set behind the Marazion Hotel, near the Quakers Meeting House. I thought I had found the grave of my ancestor and remember being much delighted as actual 19th C gravestones are few and far between in my searches. The gravestone says John Jacka of Heamoor (maybe this should have been Henfor and was a stonemason's error ) buried 24 May 1880 aged 78. If my memory serves me correctly, his wife Betsy is buried with him. Her burial was 16 Feb 1873. I believe this John Jacka to be the one listed in the 1861 census below. His age matches with his probable birth around 1802 and the St Erth birthplace would remove him as a possibility of being close kin from John Jacka (who married Elizabeth Rule). Henver House,1, John Jacka,Head,M,59,,Frmr 69a Emp 2 Men 1 Boy,St Erth Cornwall Betsy Jacka,Wife,M,,64,,St Newlyn E Cornwall Thomas Jacka,Son,U,24,,Farmers Son,St Breage Cornwall Ellen Jacka,Dau,U,,26,Farmers Dau,St Breage Cornwall William Keam,Servnt,U,39,,Carter,St Kew Cornwall William Gartrell,Servnt,U,12,,Carter,Marazion Cornwall Of course this leaves us no nearer to finding out whether the John Jacka of Tredennack and Nancledra is the son of the John Jacka of the title.
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