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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 20, 2008 15:54:22 GMT -5
The last child recorded in my last post for the widowed Joseph was difficult to decipher in the 1861 Census.
However I have found her in 1871 and the name is ELIZA.
John, Catherine, Joseph, Thomas, James and Eliza are all at Pool Hedgy.
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kernow62
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Posts: 54
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Post by kernow62 on Apr 20, 2008 22:14:21 GMT -5
Cornish Terrier has lost me now. Too much to digest. I have a lot of info on the line with David and Margery, so I can probably help, but I am so confused I am not sure what we are specifically looking for here.
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kernow62
Ysel
Born again pagan.
Posts: 54
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Post by kernow62 on Apr 20, 2008 22:44:19 GMT -5
Some more thoughts, information and scenarios for you. The first is the Arthur Martins enumerated with Charity but he might be explained. There is an Arthur Martins bp. 3rd July 1818 at Towednack son of John (carpenter) and Catherine Martins. Hmmm. - that is the same day that James and Charity baptised what appears to be their second son William at Towednack. John and Catherine had 10 children baptised at Towednack from 1816 to 1838 including Catherine Nichols Martins who married William TREWHELLA at Towednack in 1858. It may be possible that John was a brother to James. IGI shows the following:- John MARTIN bp. 30th September 1792 at Towednack m. 9th December 1815 at Towednack Catherine PENBERTHY That baptism makes John the son of David and Margery Martins. The only Arthur baptised around the right time (according to IGI) is the one above at Towednack. My second problem is the third household at Pool Hedgy. William would be born somewhere around 1800-1805 in which case he would most likely be the son of James and Charity baptised in 1802 - if he is actually connected directly. So the William baptised in 1818 becomes the real problem UNLESS there has been an error in the Transcription. 1851 Census Higher Chellew, Ludgvan Joseph Martins, head, mar, 34, tin miner, Ludgvan Mary do., wife, mar, 34, Towednack MARY JANE do., daur, 12, Ludgvan Elizabeth do., daur, 8, Ludgvan John do., son, 6, Ludgvan CHARITY do., daur, 4, Ludgvan Cathrine Ann do., daur, 1, Ludgvan Here are the probable baptisms for the children (bearing in mind there is more than one family of Joseph and Mary):- Elizabeth bp. 9 October 1842 Ludgvan John bp. 26 January 1845 Ludgvan Charity bp. 24 January 1847 Ludgvan Catherine Ann bp. 21 October 1850 Ludgvan There is no Mary Jane baptised at Ludgvan. But:- Mary Jane MARTINS bp. 3rd March 1839 at Towednack d/o Joseph (miner) and Mary It is unfortunate that William Martins (1841 Census with Frances) had died prior to the 1851 Census. His wife Frances, however, was born in Gulval which might help us. There are plenty of clues here to suggest that your Joseph was born at Ludgvan but baptised at Towednack and was son of James and Charity Martins. Arthur Martins appears at Towednack in 1851 also with a daughter named Charity and his stated birthplace is Ludgvan. I would suggest that my comment above might be worth thinking about - that a possible transcription error has occurred when recording the baptisms of William and Arthur in 1818 at Towednack. 1861 Census Joseph is back at Pool Hedgy, Ludgvan, and is now a widower with four additional children:- Joseph (8) Thomas (6) James (4) Lisea? (2) All were born at Ludgvan. That had best do for now as it is way past my bed time. But please detail the QUICK MARTIN information for me and I will see what I can find out. Ian David MARTINS and MARGERY EDDY had the following all bap at Towednack Margery MARTINS bap 26 SEP 1785 David MARTINS bap 22 JAN 1787 John MARTINS bap 22 AUG 1790 John MARTINS bap 20 SEP 1792 (see line below) William MARTINS bap 22 MAR 1795 Mary MARTINS bap 02 MAR 1798 Job MARTINS bap 09 NOV 1800 Margery MARTINS bap 19 JUN 1803 Ann MARTINS bap 28 APR 1805 Job MARTINS bap 20 MAR 1808 The childeren of John MARTINS and Catherine PENBERTHY are as follows (AFAIK) all bap at Towednack. Arthur MARTINS bap 03 JUL 1818 John MARTINS bap 08 SEP 1816 James Penberthy MARTINS bap 18 JUL 1824 Isaac MARTINS bap 06 APR 1826 Thomas Eddy MARTINS bap 10 NOV 1827 Richard David MARTINS bap 25 DEC 1834 Mary Ann MARTINS bap 20 AUG 1820 Elizabeth MARTINS bap 22 JUN 1822 Catherine Nichols MARTINS bap 25 OCT 1829 Jane MARTINS bap 28 MAY 1834
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 21, 2008 0:35:11 GMT -5
Thankyou - a little more for me to work on tonight.
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Post by davidkingmartin on Apr 21, 2008 6:34:55 GMT -5
Ian: many thanks for the interesting info. which I am trying to digest. "Londoner" has confirmed the Pool Hedgy (Poldegy?) data (eg Lisea is Eliza). Meanwhile: "Quick Martin". I am trying to find the Census entry where I saw it! There is a William D Q Martin of Ludgvan, with family, 1871 Census, but that is not the one I saw. Also (you probably have this already): Robert Trewhella +family, Ludgvan, 1841 Census. Back to the digestion process...... David.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 21, 2008 7:53:13 GMT -5
kernow62 - my apologies for having confused you. We are trying to correctly determine the parentage of Joseph Martin (bp. 1815) who married Mary Ninnes at Gulval in 1838. Joseph was a miner 'of Ludgvan' and father was named as 'James'. There are two Joseph's baptised in 1815 - One at Towednack (father James) and another at Ludgvan (father Joseph). It is my belief that the Joseph we are after, although quite possibly born at Ludgvan, was baptised at Towednack and was the son of James Martins and Charity (nee Carbus). Charity was baptised at Ludgvan, where her parents were married, but had two siblings baptised at Towednack giving us a concrete link for the family between the two Parishes. Back to Joseph and Mary. There is one child to a Joseph and Mary Martins baptised at Towednack and this was Mary Jane in 1839. The 1841 Census lists this child merely as 'Mary' but in 1851 she is Mary Jane age 12. It appears the remainder of the children (as listed in Census records) were baptised at Ludgvan. Without the Census it would be a nightmare given there were at least to Joseph Martins with a wife named Mary baptising children during the same period at Ludgvan and I am making a presumption that we may be dealing with the Joseph baptised at Ludgvan in 1815 for one of them. I will leave it at that for now to save further confusion but please feel free to ask me for further clarification if required and indeed contact me if you have something further to help us out here. Now - a question for you regarding the family of John and Catherine (Penberthy) Martin. I have an additional child listed for them - Henry baptised at Towednack 24th July 1838. Does he belong or is there another family of John and Catherine to be dealt with??? Will post a separate note regarding the David Martins. David - look forward to your thoughts once you have digested my ramblings.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 21, 2008 8:38:44 GMT -5
kernow62 - would be happy to have you pass on your outline of the family of David and Margery Martins so that I might tidy up a few loose ends. I show him as son of David and Ann (Berriman) Martins. Currently I have not allocated this last David to a family but am presuming that he was probably the son of Richard and Christian (Leggoe) Martins and baptised at Towednack in 1735. Or was he, perhaps, the son of John and Catherine (Curnow) Martin and baptised at Towednack in 1721. Of course the other problem is with the two David Martins who each married someone named MARY and were having children baptised at Towednack during the same period of about 1814 to about 1836. Would appreciate some help and advice here please.
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Post by davidkingmartin on Apr 22, 2008 12:52:44 GMT -5
Ian: some thoughts.The Arthur Martin who is listed as living with Charity Carbus (Martin) appears on the Ancestry.co listing at the same address with Joseph, Mary (20), Mary (2)..but the original record shows 3 households. Apparently, there are 2 James Martin, b.1770 and 1774, at the same address, with Charity; presumably the eldest died.. A brother of James, one of many, is Christopher 1764-1824. He m.Mary Johns. Their chilren incl. Christopher 1791-1839 who m.Susanna Berriman, son William 1816-1888, who m. Mary Ann Allen. Now: C. MArtin/Mary Johns lead us to Richard 1734-1800/Grace Uren 1739-1816. Their parents: Richard and Christian b.1709 and their parents, John who m. Catherine Curnow 1679-1760. This may be useless info.... David.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 22, 2008 14:10:06 GMT -5
Firstly - there were two James baptised to Richard and Grace at Towednack (1770 and 1774) but I have not yet found a burial for the first. It is, of course, possible that both these boys survived and married - a scenario I have seen before. I would have expected to find the burial at Towednack given all other events occurred in that Parish. The way I read this is that this James (brother of Christopher) is the one you have as the husband of Charity CARBUS. I currently do not have Charity's husband linked to any family. The James bp. 1774 and brother to Christopher is the one I have as marrying Margaret BERRYMAN at Towednack in 1793. James and Margaret (both 65) appear in the 1841 Census at Amalveor, Towednack with son Thomas (25). If the James of 1770 died and we can find a burial for him then I can find only one other James who could have married Charity CARBUS:- James MARTIN bp. 25th January 1768 at Ludgvan s/o James MARTIN and Sarah (nee THOMAS) This James had a brother named Arthur which is interesting. REQUEST - could you please supply me with all the BMD details for those mentioned in your quote above. (I have the baptisms for the two Christophers and the marriage to Mary Johns but nothing else.) A couple of points here. Just who was this Grace UREN - I cannot find her and have no details of baptism, burial or parents. John MARTIN m. Catherine CURNOW I believe John to be the following:- John MARTIN bp. 26th February 1678 at Towednack son of Lambert MARTIN and Phillis (nee TREWHELLA) He was buried 3rd February 1730 at Towednack. Let me know what you think - I look forward to getting this lot sorted out.
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Post by davidkingmartin on Apr 23, 2008 11:51:48 GMT -5
(Ian: thanks for the response). I seem to have created a bit of a "muddle" here I have Charity Carbus (Martin) bap. 19.02.1775 Ludgvan as married to James 22 May 1795 (Pallot listing), James POSSIBLY being the father of Joseph b.31.10.1815 Towed., wife Mary Ninnes...but this and the Mary Johns, Wilmot Berriman, Mary A.Allen detail all comes from "exploring" Ancestry.co., together with some info. posted here (Ian) on 21 Apr.....so no BMDs to hand, and the info. may be unreliable/muddled because I have been looking at other persons` Family Trees, some of which may not have been fully researched. Grace Uren is recorded by someone as b.14 Feb.1739 St.Ives, parents Arthur b.20 Aug.1715/Grace. David.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 23, 2008 12:52:59 GMT -5
David - no problem. Seems each of us involved in this has been finding a way to confuse one another, albeit unwittingly. OK - we need to take another close look at everything here very carefully and I will try to do that tomorrow. The identity of the husband of Charity Carbus is somewhat of a priority but I am suspecting he may be the one I mentioned as being baptised at Ludgvan in 1768. (Will try to follow up on that and see what else I can find to substantiate (or otherwise) my thoughts.) I am almost certain this James is the father of Joseph for reasons mentioned in previous posts but would certainly like some more helpful information to surface. The later generations will be sorted in time and a look at some more Census information on my part might help so will also attempt that tomorrow. AS for Grace Uren - you have cleared my mind on this one so can start working on her from a different angle. The baptism to which you refer is the only plausible one I could find when I checked IGI through familysearch last night. But I might make one correction - whoever supplied that date of baptism has also taken it from IGI and I would suggest that they viewed a batch number other than P014781. (Either that or they have amended the year to Gregorian Calender.) I will need to re-check but I am sure that when I did a search for a possible Grace Uren last night the date shown was 1738. Will try and tackle this again tomorrow, as I have said, but it is now about time for bed. Ian
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kernow62
Ysel
Born again pagan.
Posts: 54
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Post by kernow62 on Apr 24, 2008 0:12:58 GMT -5
Now to muddle things up, I have Grace UREN bap on 14 FEB 1737 to Arthur and Grace at St. Ives, but they were living in Lelant.
There is also a Grace UREN bap 05 NOV 1736 to Thomas and Grace at Uny Lelant, they previously baptised a Grace on 24 APR 1733
Furhthermore a Grace UREN baptised on 12 SEP 1736 to Vincent and Mary at Uny Lelant
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kernow62
Ysel
Born again pagan.
Posts: 54
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Post by kernow62 on Apr 24, 2008 0:48:49 GMT -5
Firstly - there were two James baptised to Richard and Grace at Towednack (1770 and 1774) but I have not yet found a burial for the first. It is, of course, possible that both these boys survived and married - a scenario I have seen before. I would have expected to find the burial at Towednack given all other events occurred in that Parish. The way I read this is that this James (brother of Christopher) is the one you have as the husband of Charity CARBUS. I currently do not have Charity's husband linked to any family. The James bp. 1774 and brother to Christopher is the one I have as marrying Margaret BERRYMAN at Towednack in 1793. James and Margaret (both 65) appear in the 1841 Census at Amalveor, Towednack with son Thomas (25). If the James of 1770 died and we can find a burial for him then I can find only one other James who could have married Charity CARBUS:- James MARTIN bp. 25th January 1768 at Ludgvan s/o James MARTIN and Sarah (nee THOMAS) This James had a brother named Arthur which is interesting. REQUEST - could you please supply me with all the BMD details for those mentioned in your quote above. (I have the baptisms for the two Christophers and the marriage to Mary Johns but nothing else.) A couple of points here. Just who was this Grace UREN - I cannot find her and have no details of baptism, burial or parents. John MARTIN m. Catherine CURNOW I believe John to be the following:- John MARTIN bp. 26th February 1678 at Towednack son of Lambert MARTIN and Phillis (nee TREWHELLA) He was buried 3rd February 1730 at Towednack. Let me know what you think - I look forward to getting this lot sorted out. Ian, I think you have the two families reversed. I am speculating here using names. Richard MARTINS and Grace had Christopher (then a ten year gap in my database) James Thomas Christian James MARTINS and Charity CARBUS had Charity (from mother) James (from father) Christopher (from uncle?) William Kitty (from aunt Christian?) Thomas (from uncle) Ann Richard (from grandfather) John Grace (from grandmother) Our other James MARTINS and Margaret BERRYMAN had Margaret (from mother) Sarah (from grandmother Sarah THOMAS?) Jane Mary Jennifer Elizabeth What do you reckon?
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kernow62
Ysel
Born again pagan.
Posts: 54
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Post by kernow62 on Apr 24, 2008 1:21:36 GMT -5
OK a bit of musing from the 1851 census for Ludgvan.
I assume this is our family? Parish LUDGVAN; Dwelling Higher Chelew; Folio 196. Page 11 Schedule 28.
Name Position Marital Age
MARTINS, JOSEPH Head M 34
MARTINS, MARY Wife M 34
MARTINS, MARY JANE Daughter - 12
MARTINS, ELIZABETH Daughter - 8
MARTINS, JOHN Son - 6
MARTINS, CHARITY Daughter - 4
MARTINS, CATHERINE ANN Daughter - 1
More info on above names:
Name Occupation Year Birth Place
MARTINS, JOSEPH Tin miner 1817 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, MARY - 1817 TOWEDNACK, Cornwall
MARTINS, MARY JANE - 1839 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, ELIZABETH - 1843 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, JOHN - 1845 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, CHARITY - 1847 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, CATHERINE ANN - 1850 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
(note the name Charity appearing)
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(are these families brothers of Joseph)
Parish LUDGVAN; Dwelling Trapowe Downs; Folio 200. Page 18 Schedule 49.
Name Position Marital Age
MARTINS, THOMAS Head M 44
MARTINS, JANE Wife M 33
MARTINS, THOMAS Son U 19
MARTINS, WILLIAM L. Son - 6
MARTINS, JOHN Son - 2
MARTINS, PEARCE L. Son - 4 months
NICHOLLS, HUGH Son in law - 11
NICHOLLS, MARY J. Dau in law - 9
More info on above names:
Name Occupation Year Birth Place
MARTINS, THOMAS Tin miner 1807 TOWEDNACK, Cornwall
MARTINS, JANE - 1818 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, THOMAS Tin miner 1832 TOWEDNACK, Cornwall
MARTINS, WILLIAM L. Scholar 1845 TOWEDNACK, Cornwall
MARTINS, JOHN - 1849 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, PEARCE L. - 1851 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
NICHOLLS, HUGH Tin dresser 1840 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
NICHOLLS, MARY J. Scholar 1842 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
(perhaps not because Thomas son of James and Charity was baptised in 1805, so this is likely the son of John MARTINS and Elizabeth bap 1806)
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Parish LUDGVAN; Dwelling Trenowen Downs; Folio 198. Page 14 Schedule 36.
Name Position Marital Age
MARTINS, RICHARD Head M 42
MARTINS, ANN Wife M 42
MARTINS, JAMES Son - 14
MARTINS, JOHN Son - 12
MARTINS, MARY Daughter - 10
MARTINS, RICHARD Son - 8
MARTINS, CHRISTOPHER Son - 6
MARTINS, ARTHUR Son - 4
MARTINS, CHARITY C. Daughter - 1
More info on above names:
Name Occupation Year Birth Place
MARTINS, RICHARD Tin miner 1809 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, ANN - 1809 SITHNEY, Cornwall
MARTINS, JAMES Tin dresser 1837 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, JOHN Tin dresser 1839 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, MARY - 1841 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, RICHARD - 1843 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, CHRISTOPHER - 1845 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, ARTHUR - 1847 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTINS, CHARITY C. - 1850 LUDGVAN, Cornwall (interesting, note name Charity, Christopher)(OK this one the age matches for him being the son of James and Charity)
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Parish LUDGVAN; Dwelling Tregender; Folio 151. Page 33. Schedule 119.
Name Position Marital Age
MARTIN, JAMES Head M 48
MARTIN, AMY Wife M 40
MARTIN, JOHN Son - 15
MARTIN, MARGARET JAMES Daughter - 13
MARTIN, WILLIAM Son - 11
MARTIN, JOSEPH Son - 8
More info on above names:
Name Occupation Year Birth Place
MARTIN, JAMES Mine agent 1803 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTIN, AMY - 1811 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTIN, JOHN Miner 1836 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTIN, MARGARET JAMES Scholar 1838 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTIN, WILLIAM Scholar 1840 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
MARTIN, JOSEPH Scholar 1843 LUDGVAN, Cornwall
(note a Joseph) (however our James MARTIN who was baptised to James and Charity was 1797 so perhaps not)
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Apr 24, 2008 1:43:58 GMT -5
Hmm - I don't think I have the families reversed but let's investigate.
Firstly - Richard and Grace also had son John (bp. 25th May 1766), David (bp. 15th May 1768) and James (bp. 7th October 1770) - all at Towednack.
In the family of James and Charity - Charity and James both obviously named for their parents is fine.
Christopher would be named after Charity's father and William possibly after her brother.
Ann possibly after Charity's mother.
Richard, John and Grace I still need to look at.
In the 1841 Census I think Charity was a widow so her James is a little difficult at present. However James and Margaret were still living and had with them son Thomas.
James and Margaret were both enumerated as being age 75 which would place James' birth closer to 1775 than 1770.
Anyway - must close now for a few hours otherwise it will cost me.
Will try to investigate and explain more later on tonight.
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