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Post by kerthen on Oct 8, 2010 23:16:37 GMT -5
Hi,
Went back through my records and I have the photos I took of the lease book when I was in Cornwall five years ago. It is not online. It is in the GO series, but I'm afraid I didn't record the specific number of the document. It was a book, of which I have a picture of the cover (but sadly not the document #). The title was: Manor of Godolphin, parish of Crowan, parish of Germoe discontinued
And the listing is: No. 43, [dated] 25th August 1792 Lessee: Wm Hockin, plot of coarse ground in Goonvares in Crowan, consideration: Building & 15 a. Lives: Lesse, age 39, son Thomas 14, Rent: 2.0, Her’t 4.0.
Goonvares was also Noonvares. In later parish rates, after William's death (see Crowan parish records, burials, p 169, # 1303: William Hocking, 82, buried 25 Dec, 1834) Thomas holds the same land in Crowan. You can find him listed on the tithe apportionments in 1840.
William, his father, is recorded in the parish baptismal records on 29 Oct. 1752 (as William Hawken) son of Thomas and Margaret.
I erred when I said before that he was the son of Thomas Hocken and Honour Rodda. Thomas's wife was Margaret. They were also the parents of: Thomas, b 1747 Margaret, b 1750 Grace, b 1855 John, b 1756 Simon, b 1758 Grace, b 1759 Tobias, b 1765 Francis, b 1768
William married Elizabeth Tipper (according to the records, but corrected to Tippet, by Bawden in his book of Crowan records) 13 July 1775 in Crowan. They had the following children: Eliza, b 1776 (married Nicholas Mean) Thomas, b 1778 (married Sarah "Sally" Taylor) William, b 1780 (married Sarah Roscrow) Mary Tippet, b 1785 (married George Taylor, a first cousin of Sally Taylor, son of her father's oldest brother, George Taylor)
Wm Hawken, son of Thomas and Margaret his wife bap 29 Oct 1752.
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Post by kerthen on Oct 8, 2010 23:19:55 GMT -5
Sorry, didn't mean to repeat myself at the end with the repeated baptismal data! I had cut and pasted it, then wrote it again above.
Also I did mean to say that Margaret, William Hocking's mother, was Margaret Rodda. The marriage is in the Crowan parish marriages under the years 1743-44, but I don't believe there is an actual date that is readable, if indeed there ever was one listed.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 9, 2010 4:37:42 GMT -5
Fortunately I think you are going to enjoy being told you are WRONG! ;D From the Crowan Parish Register via Familysearch Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, 1743-1812 Image 64 Anno Domini 1744 Thomas Hawkin and Margaret Rodda were married by Banns February the 9th Phillimore also records this marriage but as it is recorded in italics I think it may have been from the Bishops Transcript:- Thos. Hockin & Margt. Rodda 9 Feb 1744 I am sure that will help. CT
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Post by kerthen on Oct 13, 2010 0:42:35 GMT -5
Thank you for the date of the marriage, CT. Is the 1744 OS or NS?
I think that's where the 1743-44 confusion lies. I will go have a look at the microfilm which I have on indefinite loan from the FHC.
My recollection is that the film contains both the original record book and a somewhat later transcription (though not identified as a Bishop's Transcript). The two together allow for more reconstruction of names than the original.
Using it I was able to put together the name of the wife of my William Ralph, bap 1708/09. In one his wife is Honor and the surname is torn away. In the transcription, her first name is illegible, but her last name is Stephens!
I'll have a look for the Thomas/Margaret marriage. So yes, I imagine the
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 13, 2010 1:56:38 GMT -5
My apologies Kerthen! I always use OS so the date supplied is exactly what was written in the register. For those who are not so familiar with the OS/NS dates this marriage would have occurred on February 9th 1744/5. CT
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Post by donne on Oct 13, 2010 4:24:46 GMT -5
For what it's worth, the CFHS index of pre-civil-registration marriages has the following entry: Thomas HAWKIN (BT) HOCKIN / Margaret RODDA / 9 Feb 1744/45
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Post by annafhall48 on Oct 16, 2010 15:12:36 GMT -5
Hi all - This message was posted to the Hocking board by kerthen Oct 13, 2010:
"Using it I was able to put together the name of the wife of my William Ralph, bap 1708/09. In one his wife is Honor and the surname is torn away. In the transcription, her first name is illegible, but her last name is Stephens! " -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can you please clarify which Wm Ralph that is. In a prev post kerthen said that Wm Ralph married Elizabeth Hocking (b: 1807) dau of Thomas and Sarah (Taylor) - not Honour Stephens. So is this a different Wm Ralph? Or am I totally confused? Also, do you have any dates? Partial entries are very confusing to folks who are accessing the posts but have not been part of the last query/reply exchanges. Just a bit more info would be so helpful. Thanks! ah
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Post by annafhall48 on Oct 16, 2010 17:20:10 GMT -5
Hello again - I am attaching a PDF file of the lineage connecting my ancestors the Hockings and Bartles of Cornwall, rather than sending a million more questions, this is more easily navigated if you can open it! Please note that while many of the tree details are correct, it was assumed by me that Thomas Hocking bapt Apr 22, 1781, was the one who married Sarah Taylor in 1803, and he was the son of Bartholomew Hockin(g) 1746/47 and Theodosia Hockin(g), dau of John Hockin(g) (her DOB unsure) All were from Camborne. And "bettina" who started this thread, had Hocking rels in Camborne whom she visited as a child, so that link still existed. I naturally concentrated there. And as convincing as the evidence is from kerthen's posts that William was the actual father of Thomas, all the William Hocking descendants, property etc seem to have been in Crowan, and it's troubling that no bapt can be found for Thomas there. What happened to the Camborne Hockings? How are they connected? Looking thru the entire lineage, you will see the names Bartholomew, Prudence, Hocking, Rodda, Ralph repeated thru the generations in different branches of the tree. And this is not the whole tree by any means - I just sent the Hocking connected branches! So this is what led me to believe that Thomas may have been the son of Barth & Theo. Additionally there are these bits of info: - John Hockin(g) bapt Oct 15, 1775 Camborne, 3rd son of Barth & Theo married an Elizabeth. They had a dau Theodosia bpt May 27, 1804, and possibly a dau Prudence bapt Apr 9, 1820. Another Prudence born the same year, was the dau of Thomas & Sarah Hocking and my direct ancestor. She married Wm Taylor 1843, son of Wm & Grace (Rodda). Their dau Prudence Taylor 1844, married James Bartle. - John Hockin bc 1706 Camborne married Prudence "Harries" Apr 28, 1731 Camborne. (Perhaps she was related to Ann Harris, wife of Bartholomew Hocking b:1711 ?) John & Pru were the parents of: John 1731, James 1733, Theodosia bpt Mar 5,1737, Prudence bpt Oct 27, 1742 - all in Camborne. Some of my sources for above: IGI/FreeBMD/FreeCEN/FreeREG www.taylorhistory.co.ukuk-genealogy.org.uk (registers-phillack marriages) Kathy Weigel's site
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 17, 2010 3:11:16 GMT -5
Hi AH - before attending to your PDF I think we can 'streamline' things a little here. There is no need to 'duplicate' messages as you have done with this last one and as most of the information we have been dealing with concerns Crowan then I think this section is the most appropriate to continue any discussion. I suggest you make the PDF file available in this section and then we can redirect all other messages from the Queries section. And now! I have just had a read through your PDF file and have made an interesting observation. The name Bartholomew DOES NOT appear amongst the descendants of Thomas and Sarah! Prudence is there but that may have come from Sarah's side also. The key thing is that Bartholomew has not been used by Thomas and Sarah or by any of their children. Also most noteable is that the name Theodosia was not used either! I therefore agree with Kerthen that your Thomas was not the son of Bartholomew Hocking but rather was the son of William and Elizabeth as indicated by all other information. As for the Crowan/Camborne problem - you must remember that these two Parish share a fairly large border so it is not unusual to find interaction. You will find the same with Crowan and St Erth, Crowan and Breage, Crowan and Gwinear and others. If Bartholomew left a Will it might tell us something about what happened to his son Thomas. CT
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Post by kerthen on Oct 20, 2010 16:33:49 GMT -5
Anna wrote:
"Using it I was able to put together the name of the wife of my William Ralph, bap 1708/09. In one his wife is Honor and the surname is torn away. In the transcription, her first name is illegible, but her last name is Stephens! " -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can you please clarify which Wm Ralph that is. In a prev post kerthen said that Wm Ralph married Elizabeth Hocking (b: 1807) dau of Thomas and Sarah (Taylor) - not Honour Stephens. So is this a different Wm Ralph? Or am I totally confused? Also, do you have any dates? Partial entries are very confusing to folks who are accessing the posts but have not been part of the last query/reply exchanges. Just a bit more info would be so helpful. Thanks! ah
First, Anna, these people are 100 years apart. The William RALPH I am writing about, who o 25 Nov 1730 married Honour STEPHENS, was born in the first decade of the 18th century ( bap 8 Mar 1708/09 in St Erth), not in the 19th century, so should not be confused with those guys. He died in 1771 in Crowan, but was buried at St Erth 4 Apr 1771.
This 1708/09 William is the son of Phillip RALPH and Martha HARRIS. He and Honour had a daughter called Honour and a son, Thomas, several sons named William, the last of whom survived to adulthood, and a son John, my direct ancestor, who was baptised 1 Feb 1747/48 in Crowan.
John married Honour Symons/Symonds/Semmens 3 Apr 1772 in Crowan. They were the parents of Honour, bap Dec 1772, bur Feb 1773, Grace, bap Apr 1774, William, bap Jul 1778, Honour, bap Nov. 1781, and John, Jul 1785.
Their son William RALPH, bap 1778, married Elizabeth BARKER, of St Erth, Feb 1803. (not to be confused with the William RALPH of Crowan who married Mary CARNE of Breage, in Breage in 1807).
Keeping these two Williams distinct and separate has been a full time job for several years as they both lived at Pauls Green and both had sons named William as well as sharing several other childrens' names between the families. But I do believe I have them sorted out and that it makes sense.
Anyway, the William RALPH, b 1778 (son of John, grandson of William 1708, g-grandson of Phillip, 1671) and his wife Elizabeth, were the parents of William RALPH, b 1806 who did indeed marry Elizabeth HOCKING, daughter of Thomas and Sarah "Sally" TAYLOR. Their son Thomas Hocken RALPH is my gg-grandfather.
I do not doubt that there is a likely connection to the Camborne HOCKINGs, but the fact that Thomas is a life on his father's land lease in 1792 indicates that William HAD a son called Thomas who apparently was not baptised at Crowan or anywhere else or was not recorded in any location, but his existence is undoubted. AND he is on the record as a life of the very land that he comes to cultivate himself after William's death.
The Prudence does come from Sally's family. And the Simon from his -- he would have had an uncle Simon. All the other names are quite common in the area and in the two families, but the lack of any Bartholomews or Theodosias is, I think, an argument that the Thomas HOCKING who married Sally is not the son of Bartholomew.
In fact he names his sons: Thomas, William, John, Richard and Simon -- all of them, except Richard (Sally's father's name) the names of his own father and his father's father and brothers. If he'd only had a couple more boys he and Sally might have had Tobias and Francis as well!
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 21, 2010 2:57:11 GMT -5
Thanks Kerthen - as far as I can see there is no direct link involved here although it is very possible there are links of sorts. I am also not really clear on what brought about the fixation that Thomas must belong to Bartholomew. However, it is clear (as well as documented) that he did not. A question was asked about the identity of Grace HARRIS who write her Will in 1759 (proved 1768). Although I am not absolutely certain I do think that she was probably the wife of William HARRIS. William HARRIS married Grace WHITE 4th February 1720 at Gwithian. There do not appear to be any children of this marriage so the bequests in the Will most likely go to nephews and nieces. Mary, Alice and Jane white, daughters of George and Ann, were all baptised in the early 1740s. They will be daughters of George White and Ann Canarthen who marrieed 17th August 1740 at Phillack. Alice wife of John Curnow of Towednack was also a White and possible baptised in 1706 at Gwithian daughter of Joseph and Alice. Jane daughter of Peter Curnow was baptised at Gwithian in 1748 and her mother was Ann HARRIS and undoubtedly connected to William Harris. We know that Bartholomew Hocking's wife was another Ann Harris and she is probably also related to William. Samuel Carthew's wife was yet another Harris - Cordelia. Cordelia Harris daughter of Thomas was baptised 30th March 1723 at Camborne so I should think she is a niece of William. That is fairly rough I know but there is no 'hidden' link there and it all looks reasonably straightforward. CT
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Post by kerthen on Oct 21, 2010 19:59:00 GMT -5
CT, Thank you for the Harris info. I know nothing at all about the HARRIS clan. Martha, who married Phillip RALPH 25 Nov 1707 is the only HARRIS I have in my Cornish bunch (I have a couple of South Carolinian HARRISes, but I refuse to look for any connections there!).
Martha [Harris] RALPH appears to have been buried at St Hilary (though listed as being resident of St Earth [sic] 13 Dec 1737. (there are extracts online from these records accessible through GENUKI, St Hilary Church Records, but I have also copied the microfilm when it was available on FamilySearch.org).
I have found no baptismal record for Martha HARRIS, though I would speculate that she belongs to some St Hilary HARRIS family. Haven't had time to get involved in looking for her -- too many RALPHs to sort out!
I think the question about Thomas HOCKING's parentage is one that has stymied a lot of researchers because the question is not answered in the church records. When he does not appear in the Crowan records where he should be, one goes looking elsewhere, and one finds likely possibilities. Thomas, son of Bartholomew, is certainly one of those as Camborne is not far from Crowan and he is more or less the same age.
I benefited from Dick Keuris, of the HOCKING Family Association, pointing me in the direction of the Thomas HOCKING who married Margaret RODDA and saying, "Have you considered their son Thomas as a possible father." I spent quite a while in the Cornwall Record Office considering that exact possibility and looking at ALL the HOCKING records I could find in Crowan because, as Anna says, these people made a lot of records in Crowan. I could never find that Thomas, their eldest son, married anyone or had any children. But William did -- and when I found him with a son, Thomas, who was not in the baptismal records and who was the age that Thomas HOCKING, husband of Sally TAYLOR, should have been, I started looking at him more closely.
Finding the tithe map confirmed his possession of the same land that William HOCKING, father of Thomas of the lease, had early possessed just made the connection complete. As Thomas was on that lease, I don't know that he would have had to go back to the Duke of Leeds and be admitted to tenancy himself. I will try to find out if that was the case.
In any case, if I had not had the opportunity to go to the Cornwall Record Office and find that lease, I would have had no evidence to support my contention that William was Thomas's father. Lucky for me, I did get to go.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 22, 2010 0:01:30 GMT -5
Thanks again Kerthen - I think that makes things a little more clear.
It also emphasises the fact that not all baptisms were recorded - at least not in the 'official registers'.
It is possible that some events were written down somewhere but the transfer to the register was neglected.
Unfortunately the Crowan records get more and more messy as you got back mainly due to mould and decay. But I did pick up that William Hocking may have been the son of another Thomas and the year 1719 comes to mind.
CT
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Post by kerthen on Oct 22, 2010 7:44:00 GMT -5
I believe you are right, CT. William HOCKING, bap 1752, was the son of Thomas HOCKING (bap 1719) and Margaret RODDA, and that Thomas appears to have been the son of William HOCKING (wife unknown to me).
I think, given where the HOCKINGs lived in Crowan, it is likely that Thomas may have been baptised at the chapel of ease at St Erth (much nearer his name) and the baptism not recorded. Or he simply could have been left out by a busy vicar, just as another busy vicar recorded his son Simon's mother's name as Catherine, not Sarah.
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Post by Cornish Terrier on Oct 22, 2010 10:16:27 GMT -5
There appear to be only two real possibilities at Crowan for the parents of the early Thomas. Given the state of the Crowan PRs I do not doubt there could be others but these are what I found in Phillimore. Both are transcribed as HoSking but I would need toh ave a really close look at the original to see if this might be an error. And to look at them I will have to try and find them on the images I have ..... and that will be a task in itself! However:- Tho. Hosking & Cha[ rity] his wife 2nd November 1711 Richard Hoskin & Cath. his wife 23rd June 1716 I will try to locate them in the PRs but I cannot promise just when that will be. CT
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